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Topic: Mages have too much movement/utility without sacrificing damage output (Read 1168 times) previous topic - next topic

  • Nuyur
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Re: Mages have too much movement/utility without sacrificing damage output
Reply #30
Did you know, magnitude actually makes begone stronger?
Did you know, mage equipment has magnitude traits? (also, you use a medium/slow staff instead of a bb)
Did you know, magic titles have % potency?
Did you know, melee titles have -% potency?

Its really annoying to have to spell things out for people that think they know it all when they really dont.
And yes, i dont know everything about the game either, but you are ignoring the obvious gap in mobility just because you have gotten a sense that mages need mobility to survive.

Mages do need to outmanuver a physical player, because they need to avoid melee.
This doesnt mean they need to always be able to get a gap on demand with 3 different options, each with seperate cooldowns.

Which is something that got brought up, that begone +launch already has very little downtime. If you have an air title (which, is a strong pick in the current setup), you add in stormblast ontop. Now stormblast does have a long cooldown, but its there on the very small chance that you fuck up so much that you need another mobility spell because the other 2 are still on cooldown.

Then there's options like confusion, eye rot, ice storm to make vision an issue.
While you can counter some of these, it means you need to avoid it while keeping track of your target to close the gap.
I dont know about you, but i have a hard time reading the mind of my opponent while im looking up in the air to not look at the blind.
I also cannot seem to predict where he runs when i have to take out my melee weapon and look straight down to avoid the eye rot blind (and you kind of want/need to jump, else you often still get the blind effect).
A jump is currently more of a "knockup" than most spell effects are. (most, read carefully)
Mages can use that air time to create a bigger gap, thats the whole point of a knockup and its not like its hard to know what is going to happen.
Either he gets the blind effect, and you change direction.
Or he jumps, and you change direction....OMG mage so hard

Which leaves us with aimed alternatives...because yes, even a mage has spells that require aim.
Punguent mist, while not ideal, will hamper vision greatly and (esp in team fights) make it very hard to track you.
Dragon breath will shortly blind most races (mahirim OP!), with higher magnitude this is enough to not see a turn you made untill the time has passed.
Fireball, magma and lighting strike all knock up your opponent a certain ammount, often enough to get some distance increase.

Now i know you want to say "knockups got nerfed because everybody is heavy".
But in reality, the people that COULD unburden to keep up with you (they cant, but lets say your arguement holds some merit), are lightly geared enough that knockups still do plenty to avoid melee (barring seize)
While the people you cant knock up properly, cant.

So either you can kite because you got cc.
Or you can kite because they cant go anywhere.

The first is skill based, the latter is unbalanced.
  • Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 05:22:27 pm by Nuyur

Re: Mages have too much movement/utility without sacrificing damage output
Reply #31
Just in case you forgot about it:
@dariobrun mages can use unburden too.  stop going on like they dont have better movement, you look stupid.
Lol and please, enlighten me, what does unburden do when you already have 0 magic encumberance? Yeah you got it! NOTHING
[/quote]
It does nothing got it LOL xD
HAHAHA
You CLEARLY were not stating that unburden helps you at 0 encumberance, no :D

  • Nuyur
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Mages have too much movement/utility without sacrificing damage output
Reply #32
Might aswell read your mind and write out a response to you now.

When  i said unbalanced, i dont mean that a full heavy doesnt have a lot of resistances and health regen. (i do like how we skip over the mana regen a mage has, which allows for a lot of mana>stam, which makes it a leather wearer with a tiny bit of cast time. most heavies run out of stam faster than health, it also cannot be team healed. Heck, most of the balance suggestions for the "new" spell schools is to add secondairy effects. Come on...)

I meant that if a mage wants to play like a bitch, he can almost guarantee he will not die to a full heavy.
It doesnt mean he gets to cap the village, revive/gank somebody, hold a choke point or any ground really.
But not losing is the first step to victory.

Will obviously also point out that a full heavy refusing to come out of a house can preform a similar feat.
Minus the part where calling in friends to help has a fixed destination that will eventually get him killed.
While a mage can run away and lead you on a wild goose chase.

But well, balance talks are never as simple as buffing/nerfing/adding/removing one thing.

Re: Mages have too much movement/utility without sacrificing damage output
Reply #33
@Nuyur i am not saying that a mage is not a bitch to catch, if he knows how to play well, i am just saying that, to me, it is NOT unbalanced.
I'd avoid now start to go into all the specific title combinations that it make it harder to catch because those are too many variables to introduce because, then, i could start also saying that it is not true that stamina can't be healed by teammates...you just need a title in Spellchanting and you can now also heal stamina, But, as i said, we can not analyze every single possible situation to determine balance.

If a melee gets into melee range, he can kill the mage in 0.5s. Can the mage kill the heavy in 0.5s? Not even close. So is that unbalanced too? No, it isn't exactly because the mage is harded to catch. If you catch him he is dead in the blink of an eye, so it HAS to be difficult to catch. HARD is way different from impossible, though

It is impossible to catch him? No, it isn't or, otherwise, we'd only see mages out there and there would be no one killing them and we both know that is definitely not true since there are a TON of melee/archers doing fine and able to kill mages with no problems.

With the changes they made to bunnyhopping so that now you deal a considerable amount of dmg to yourself when jumping too far, it has been already heavily nerfed and i don't feel it is unbalanced at all now.
I had meet some mages that were able to always manage to escape one way or another when in difficulty, but those were a very small minority, they were specced with the right titles (air/fire) AND were really good at doing it....but in most cases, we always managed to kill a fleeing mage.

I also met people in fullplate/infernal being able to recover from being nearly dead to 40% life in seconds thanks to potions/rage/transfer/heals/base hp regen and being nearly "immortals" just by managing to avoid being hits for a few seconds (hiding behind something for example)...those it makes heavy armors unbalanced because they can manage to recover fast thanks to a combination of low received dmg+high hp regen? nope it doeesn't....but it doesn't make them less of a bitch to kill just as much as a good mage
  • Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 05:49:29 pm by dariobrun

Re: Mages have too much movement/utility without sacrificing damage output
Reply #34
Two more facts to add to the discussion:
* you CAN heal someone's stamina (not much, only ~10 per cast)
* using unburden improves displacement effects even when you're at 0 encumbrance (because Encumbrance, in addition to being a penalty, acts as a resist to displacements too)

Carry on.

Still a member of SaltyBitches™ Club

  • Nuyur
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Mages have too much movement/utility without sacrificing damage output
Reply #35
If a melee gets into melee range, he can kill the mage in 0.5s.

Really, half a second?
What, you run around at 5 hp for fun all the time?

If you are at full health, counting 400 (even though you can have more), hitting in the back (even though you could ...not show your back), you would need 6 hits minimum (not with daggers).
6 hits is 3 seconds, at least. With 2h probably closer to 5 seconds.

Is that fast, highest dps in the game, yes. But it has a severe range limitation that warrants the compensation.

If you are not at full health (because archery is a thing) then sure, you can die quicker.
But you deal damage back at range. You are advocating superior mobility (note, not kite potential through the use of CC or other spells, just straight up mobility), because melee must be avoided at all costs.
Its simply tilted too far, as often with things that are unbalanced.

If you catch him he is dead in the blink of an eye, so it HAS to be difficult to catch. HARD is way different from impossible, though

2 heavies spot a mage on a mount, the mage rides away and they cannot catch him.
Not enough mobility, even with unburden. And while slow mount sprint is great...
The mage can literally ride a quick mount, have it be sniped after mount sprint from the heavies.
Then bunny hop himself and mount a slow mount and sprint away.
You cannot get caught, unless you blunder...repeatedly...and your aim is so bad you cannot win a fight with your opponent(s) at low vitals because of the difficulty of chasing you.

2 mages spot a heavy on a mount, 1 dismounts and hops to get the heavy to dodge shots making the 2nd mage close the gap.
2nd mage dismounts as he catches up to the first, swapping roles untill both are close enough (and/or) the mount to die.
Heavy now has no means to escape.
Before you say, he can turn at any point and start killing them like the mage situation before.
Keep in mind that a heavy really does need to melee. So yay for mobility right?

It is impossible to catch him? No, it isn't or, otherwise, we'd only see mages out there and there would be no one killing them and we both know that is definitely not true since there are a TON of melee/archers doing fine and able to kill mages with no problems.

Melee is the best tool to kill bad players if you are good.
Just because nubs get chopped up by better players doesnt mean the balance is in a good spot.


I had meet some mages that were able to always manage to escape one way or another when in difficulty, but those were a very small minority, they were specced with the right titles (air/fire) AND were really good at doing it....but in most cases, we always managed to kill a fleeing mage.

Ignoring the "we" part, meaning your opponent decided to fight in an outnumberd situation (or lost a fight he was part of trying to escape).
There's a very simple basic truth in this statement. Some good players can take this game mechanic and always not lose.
Not losing =/= winning, but its certaintly a step forward from having to live with the consequences of getting into a fight.
Or a consequence of being out in the world with the option of pvp.



I also met people in fullplate/infernal being able to recover from being nearly dead to 40% life in seconds thanks to potions/rage/transfer/heals/base hp regen and being nearly "immortals" just by managing to avoid being hits for a few seconds (hiding behind something for example)...those it makes heavy armors unbalanced because they can manage to recover fast thanks to a combination of low received dmg+high hp regen? nope it doeesn't....but it doesn't make them less of a bitch to kill just as much as a good mage

You are forgetting the part where health =/= stamina, the ability to actually fight.
Longer fights drain stats on heavies. Good ones will utilise the regen of mana and stamina, but recovering like that takes a lot out of you.
(keep in mind, im not saying the ammount of punishment a full heavy with shield can take is in a good spot.
But you cant give mobility, something which can be used in many situations, and couple that to endurance.
Especially because you are still fucking over the leather geared players that lack magic magnitude, have to use unburden, and cannot endure as much damage nor recover that health very quickly.
(yes, they got more stam so they should stam>health right?
You are a mage, you should mana>stam, and stam>health. Immortality can always be argued if you were given infinite time to transfer. But guess what, cast speed and magnitude is a thing there too. So....mages > leather > heavy in the continued restat potential. The only thing heavy got going for it is resistances. And both leather and mages get magnitude on their attacks to compensate for that).

This will be the last reply.

Two more facts to add to the discussion:
* you CAN heal someone's stamina (not much, only ~10 per cast)
* using unburden improves displacement effects even when you're at 0 encumbrance (because Encumbrance, in addition to being a penalty, acts as a resist to displacements too)

Carry on.

Alright, so some people can heal stamina but its still not standard and still minor.
And yes, unburden ofcourse improves your ability if you have magic encumberance.
But having 0 magic enc =/= same magnitude as a (title) mage
Also...casting unburden still takes time, which the mage can restat or deal damage in.
You cant pretend its fine to be casting all the time just to achieve the same as another in half the time.

Re: Mages have too much movement/utility without sacrificing damage output
Reply #36
Quote
Just in case you forgot about it:
@dariobrun mages can use unburden too.  stop going on like they dont have better movement, you look stupid.
Lol and please, enlighten me, what does unburden do when you already have 0 magic encumberance? Yeah you got it! NOTHING
It does nothing got it LOL xD
HAHAHA
You CLEARLY were not stating that unburden helps you at 0 encumberance, no :D

Thanks for repeating the same drivel over and over, even when not having a clue.
Two more facts to add to the discussion:
* you CAN heal someone's stamina (not much, only ~10 per cast)
* using unburden improves displacement effects even when you're at 0 encumbrance (because Encumbrance, in addition to being a penalty, acts as a resist to displacements too)

Carry on.

@dariobrun hahahahahhahahaha u wot m8?
I dueled him once and was in control first half of the fight and then food buff wore out and not noticing lost, so he did win but hes by no means any better a player than I.

Re: Mages have too much movement/utility without sacrificing damage output
Reply #37
Thanks for repeating the same drivel over and over, even when not having a clue.
Keep denying your own sentences, i am sure it is good for your mental health to keep telling yourself "i am right, i am right, i am right"

Quote
@dariobrun hahahahahhahahaha u wot m8?
I won't even need to reply to that, someone else already did it
And yes, unburden ofcourse improves your ability if you have magic encumberance.
But having 0 magic enc =/= same magnitude as a (title) mage
Stay deluded and clueless ;)

Re: Mages have too much movement/utility without sacrificing damage output
Reply #38
Though it might not make sense at first glance Dario is correct because mobility is dual effected by encumb, once by magic encumb effecting magnitude and secondly by BASE encumb reducing knock around, so if your encumb is 19.99 you have 0 magic encumb and will have full magnitude, but you will still have that 19.99 reducing knock around, so if you unburden that 19.99 becomes 0 and thus you get more effect from mobility that knocks you (storm, begone, launch etc).

Re: Mages have too much movement/utility without sacrificing damage output
Reply #39
@Mycke died to battlespikes hes on your level @dariobrun
I dueled him once and was in control first half of the fight and then food buff wore out and not noticing lost, so he did win but hes by no means any better a player than I.

Re: Mages have too much movement/utility without sacrificing damage output
Reply #40
MAGEFALL

Re: Mages have too much movement/utility without sacrificing damage output
Reply #41
you hardly can call them mages... More like a clowns with broken magic.
Some of them have pretty good damage through title % abuse,but its peace of shit pvp.No dynamic.
  • Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 08:36:35 am by huem vzhopu po pizde

Re: Mages have too much movement/utility without sacrificing damage output
Reply #42

Re: Mages have too much movement/utility without sacrificing damage output
Reply #43
dnd mages is same piece of shit as this video. Pvp in dnd i same shit lol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27ZpwIzhwDs