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Topic: race wars (Read 1687 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: race wars
Reply #30
Didn't Uber already say they have no plans to tie villages into race wars? And that they like them being
 the "entry" level pvp for everyone.
To turn them into race alliance objectives would be making them truly "entry" level pvp for everyone. So I guess they would be OK with the change. Maybe they will come here and discuss it with community. Or maybe @Rigan you can link them talking about vcps not going to be race oriented.

"As we've always said: They will remain separated from the conquest meta game.
It is viewed as an outlet and entry level PvP. Entry level as in without barrier of entry, not as in noob friendly.
It is where you should go without mandatory diplomatic implications or any initial investment.
They are like the tourneys, wargames or jousting of Darkfall."

https://forums.darkfallnewdawn.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1;area=showposts;sa=messages;start=75

cba Looking for the other 2 or 3 posts about it, theres a length one with an indepth reasoning behind not linking it to races. You can go find :D
Don't see anything in the quote about them having no plans of tying villages into race wars. So why would you say that?

Re: race wars
Reply #31
Didn't Uber already say they have no plans to tie villages into race wars? And that they like them being
 the "entry" level pvp for everyone.
To turn them into race alliance objectives would be making them truly "entry" level pvp for everyone. So I guess they would be OK with the change. Maybe they will come here and discuss it with community. Or maybe @Rigan you can link them talking about vcps not going to be race oriented.

"As we've always said: They will remain separated from the conquest meta game.
It is viewed as an outlet and entry level PvP. Entry level as in without barrier of entry, not as in noob friendly.
It is where you should go without mandatory diplomatic implications or any initial investment.
They are like the tourneys, wargames or jousting of Darkfall."

https://forums.darkfallnewdawn.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1;area=showposts;sa=messages;start=75

cba Looking for the other 2 or 3 posts about it, theres a length one with an indepth reasoning behind not linking it to races. You can go find :D

That's too bad because it actually has a large barrier of entry in practice, as you need to be in the "right" type of clan (either through size or pvp skill) to realistically participate in most VCPs, unless you want to be fodder.    (If you play off hours and are in a remote areas you might nab a VCP in a smaller/lower skill clan, but not in contested areas at prime hours.)

Making them straight faction based in some implementation (doesn't have to be siege related) opens them up to anyone, as you have default allies upfront.

Anyway, the current VCP system is another reason people quietly quit the game, for a number of reasons.

The quote above had the line:
Villages will not be linked to siege mechanics.


Re: race wars
Reply #32
Didn't Uber already say they have no plans to tie villages into race wars? And that they like them being
 the "entry" level pvp for everyone.
To turn them into race alliance objectives would be making them truly "entry" level pvp for everyone. So I guess they would be OK with the change. Maybe they will come here and discuss it with community. Or maybe @Rigan you can link them talking about vcps not going to be race oriented.

"As we've always said: They will remain separated from the conquest meta game.
It is viewed as an outlet and entry level PvP. Entry level as in without barrier of entry, not as in noob friendly.
It is where you should go without mandatory diplomatic implications or any initial investment.
They are like the tourneys, wargames or jousting of Darkfall."

https://forums.darkfallnewdawn.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1;area=showposts;sa=messages;start=75

cba Looking for the other 2 or 3 posts about it, theres a length one with an indepth reasoning behind not linking it to races. You can go find :D

I think that it's reasonable to keep villages separate from the racial war stuff and conquest side of the game as Ub3r stated. However, the rewards also need to be separate from those aspects of the game. Currently the main reason for doing VCPs is meditation to pay for your clan holdings, that directly ties VCPs into the conquest side of the game. So either Ub3rgames needs to change the rewards from meditation to just loot and gold or they've failed in their prescribed goal for villages and the OPer remains correct about their negative impact on other major design goals of Ub3rgames in regard to racial alliance cohesion and cooperation.

Re: race wars
Reply #33
Good topic and more surprisingly, a good discussion. We need more threads like this.
ᛟ Charax Hatehunter ᛟ

Re: race wars
Reply #34
Didn't Uber already say they have no plans to tie villages into race wars? And that they like them being
 the "entry" level pvp for everyone.
To turn them into race alliance objectives would be making them truly "entry" level pvp for everyone. So I guess they would be OK with the change. Maybe they will come here and discuss it with community. Or maybe @Rigan you can link them talking about vcps not going to be race oriented.

"As we've always said: They will remain separated from the conquest meta game.
It is viewed as an outlet and entry level PvP. Entry level as in without barrier of entry, not as in noob friendly.
It is where you should go without mandatory diplomatic implications or any initial investment.
They are like the tourneys, wargames or jousting of Darkfall."

https://forums.darkfallnewdawn.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1;area=showposts;sa=messages;start=75

cba Looking for the other 2 or 3 posts about it, theres a length one with an indepth reasoning behind not linking it to races. You can go find :D

I think that it's reasonable to keep villages separate from the racial war stuff and conquest side of the game as Ub3r stated. However, the rewards also need to be separate from those aspects of the game. Currently the main reason for doing VCPs is meditation to pay for your clan holdings, that directly ties VCPs into the conquest side of the game. So either Ub3rgames needs to change the rewards from meditation to just loot and gold or they've failed in their prescribed goal for villages and the OPer remains correct about their negative impact on other major design goals of Ub3rgames in regard to racial alliance cohesion and cooperation.

I think you are overthinking the rewards from VCP's. Personally, I go with clan/allies for a little PVP, since its a guaranteed source of it in most cases, rather than riding around to potentially find nothing.

My only concern, which is a major one, about it being tied into Races, would be that it would kill of the PVP we do actually get now.

Every villages I goto or the clan goto, we see are Epoch or Rats in the Hats. So with Nomads and Pil Og Blue, thats a brawl between alfar clans. I honestly rarely see any other clan than those two. Tying race wars into VCP's, is going to kill that source of PVP we get it. Or whats the hope, that more clans suddently decide to get involved with VCPs? cos I honestly don't see that hjappening.

Re: race wars
Reply #35
Israeli vs Palestinian  isn't race war enough for you people, you even need it in yer video games? SMH
My dreams are all dead and buried
Sometimes I wish the sun would just explode
When God comes and calls me to his kingdom
I'll take all ya sons of bitches when I go!
Let Her Blow!
Carl Brutananadilewski - SG of Mooninites

Re: race wars
Reply #36
Israeli vs Palestinian  isn't race war enough for you people, you even need it in yer video games? SMH
Those aren't even races...

Re: race wars
Reply #37
Boy: Hey Dad,  i met this really cool girl we killed crogs together. Can she come over for tea?
Dad: Cool, son. What race is she?
Boy: Dwarf
Dad: Ain't no stinkin Dworf coming in my house boy!
Boy: "Cries"
Dad: Nowrun along and find your self a nice pale looking Alfar girl.

I dueled him once and was in control first half of the fight and then food buff wore out and not noticing lost, so he did win but hes by no means any better a player than I.

  • MKH
  • [*][*][*]
Re: race wars
Reply #38
Didn't Uber already say they have no plans to tie villages into race wars? And that they like them being
 the "entry" level pvp for everyone.
To turn them into race alliance objectives would be making them truly "entry" level pvp for everyone. So I guess they would be OK with the change. Maybe they will come here and discuss it with community. Or maybe @Rigan you can link them talking about vcps not going to be race oriented.

"As we've always said: They will remain separated from the conquest meta game.
It is viewed as an outlet and entry level PvP. Entry level as in without barrier of entry, not as in noob friendly.
It is where you should go without mandatory diplomatic implications or any initial investment.
They are like the tourneys, wargames or jousting of Darkfall."

https://forums.darkfallnewdawn.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1;area=showposts;sa=messages;start=75

cba Looking for the other 2 or 3 posts about it, theres a length one with an indepth reasoning behind not linking it to races. You can go find :D

I think that it's reasonable to keep villages separate from the racial war stuff and conquest side of the game as Ub3r stated. However, the rewards also need to be separate from those aspects of the game. Currently the main reason for doing VCPs is meditation to pay for your clan holdings, that directly ties VCPs into the conquest side of the game. So either Ub3rgames needs to change the rewards from meditation to just loot and gold or they've failed in their prescribed goal for villages and the OPer remains correct about their negative impact on other major design goals of Ub3rgames in regard to racial alliance cohesion and cooperation.

I think you are overthinking the rewards from VCP's. Personally, I go with clan/allies for a little PVP, since its a guaranteed source of it in most cases, rather than riding around to potentially find nothing.

My only concern, which is a major one, about it being tied into Races, would be that it would kill of the PVP we do actually get now.

Every villages I goto or the clan goto, we see are Epoch or Rats in the Hats. So with Nomads and Pil Og Blue, thats a brawl between alfar clans. I honestly rarely see any other clan than those two. Tying race wars into VCP's, is going to kill that source of PVP we get it. Or whats the hope, that more clans suddently decide to get involved with VCPs? cos I honestly don't see that hjappening.

It could not happen with out complete revamp of village system which I honestly think ain't something focus should be on now. If villages cause some inconveniences when thinking about race wars its still too minor problem In my opinion to put dev effort for it now. They really need to get territorial control warfronts watch towers, market tools etc. First done and then they can see what villages should be like. Change into racial war and tie them in warfronts or watchtowers or something but I genuinely think that it's develop time ain't atm.
Viil Taja - Epoch

Re: race wars
Reply #39
OK, so one problem emerged - if villages were changed to race objective and lawless areas in them were removed, there would be less pvp as not in every village you would be able to find "enemies". This problem I've been mentioning since the beginning of the discussion (even in first post of the thread).

BUT is this really true?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

TO SUM IT UP - I'm not sure any more that "there would be less pvp" argument is a honest one. There would be less of mindless pvp, less FFA pvp without consequences - and consequences are an important part here, as there is a difference between meaningless pvp and pvp with consequences. After the change you could still have as much pvp as now - game would not stop you in any way. But consequences would be there. To be able to remain blue while slaughtering all racial allies at vcps is a big flaw in world design in race wars oriented game.

Also after the change clans with less pvp experience would have a chance at villages finally. As they would work with race alliance, and not always get rolled by Epoch for example. So there is a chance there would actually be more people at villages then now. Now some don't even bother, as they have zero chances as a clan (because of numbers and/or skill).

  • Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 04:36:04 pm by wildNothing

Re: race wars
Reply #40
OK, so one problem emerged - if villages were changed to race objective and lawless areas in them were removed, there would be less pvp as not in every village you would be able to find "enemies". This problem I've been mentioning since the beginning of the discussion (even in first post of the thread).

BUT is this really true?

1. There is nothing stopping you from becoming a clan of reds or ARAC. If finding PvP is your main goal in this game, this might be the path for you (don't have to be though, look at my second point). DND is not a shooter. It's mmorpg with race conflict setting and going against your race needs to have consequences for game to have any appeal to broader mmorpg crowd.

2. There is nothing stopping you from moving to places where enemy races are present - moving to the village every time it goes active or moving permanently to the area. PvP clans can live closer to racial boarders or even take holdings in the middle of enemy territory.

3. Same argument (of less opportunities to kill without consequences) could have been made for removal of lawless areas in general. But look what we got in return. Now you can't find pvp at every spawn you find someone in, that's true, sometimes it's racial ally. But this is the sole reason game feels somehow better. PVP STARTS TO HAVE A MEANING.


TO SUM IT UP - I'm not sure any more that "there would be less pvp" argument is a honest one. There would be less of mindless pvp, less FFA pvp without consequences - and consequences are an important part here, as there is a difference between meaningless pvp and pvp with consequences. After the change you could still have as much pvp as now - game would not stop you in any way. But consequences would be there. To be able to remain blue while slaughtering all racial allies at vcps is a big flaw in world design in race wars oriented game.

Your argument against the argument I brought up is invalid, entirely.

If for example, Nomads, rats and Epoch ALL wish to remain blue clans, in order to get fights we would have to relocate somewhere else in the map?  you realise the map is not that big right? Don't know if you goto villages, but Epoch are really dedicated boys when it comes to Vcp,s, you will see them on nearly every village on mainland if it's in there power to do so. Your "move somewhere else"  just to avoid fighting same race and getting some Pvp, is quite frankly not a valid option here.


Re: race wars
Reply #41
Your agent against the argument I brought up is invalid, entirely.

If for example, Nomads, rats and Epoch ALL wish to remain blue clans, in order to get fights we would have to relocate somewhere else in the map?  you realise the map is not that big right? Don't know if you goto villages, but Epoch are really dedicated boys when it comes to Vcp,s, you will see them on nearly every village on mainland if it's in there power to do so. Your "move somewhere else"  just to avoid fighting same race and getting some Pvp, is quite frankly not a valid option here.
I said that if finding PvP is your main goal in this game, ARAC/Red might be the path for you. The game failed to attract any other players but PvP oriented because of this "I want PvP everywhere at any time with no consequences" approach. Again - this game can't be perceived as a shooter. If it is it will die.

But if you insist on being blue PvP clan, than yes, you would have to fight alongside Epoch vs other race alliances and ARAC clans at villages. If Epoch would not go red/ARAC right after the change of course (to get more pvp).

Also after the change clans with less pvp experience would have a chance at villages finally. As they would work with race alliance, and not always get rolled by strongest clan. So there is a chance there would actually be more people at villages then now. Now some don't even bother, as they have zero chances as a clan (because of numbers and/or skill).
  • Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 04:34:33 pm by wildNothing

  • SomeBK
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: race wars
Reply #42
OK, so one problem emerged - if villages were changed to race objective and lawless areas in them were removed, there would be less pvp as not in every village you would be able to find "enemies". This problem I've been mentioning since the beginning of the discussion (even in first post of the thread).

BUT is this really true?

1. There is nothing stopping you from becoming a clan of reds or ARAC. If finding PvP is your main goal in this game, this might be the path for you (don't have to be though, look at my second point). DND is not a shooter. It's mmorpg with race conflict setting and going against your race needs to have consequences for game to have any appeal to broader mmorpg crowd.

2. There is nothing stopping you from moving to places where enemy races are present - moving to the village every time it goes active or moving permanently to the area. PvP clans can live closer to racial boarders or even take holdings in the middle of enemy territory.

3. Same argument (of less opportunities to kill without consequences) could have been made for removal of lawless areas in general. But look what we got in return. Now you can't find pvp at every spawn you find someone in, that's true, sometimes it's racial ally. But this is the sole reason game feels somehow better. PVP STARTS TO HAVE A MEANING.


TO SUM IT UP - I'm not sure any more that "there would be less pvp" argument is a honest one. There would be less of mindless pvp, less FFA pvp without consequences - and consequences are an important part here, as there is a difference between meaningless pvp and pvp with consequences. After the change you could still have as much pvp as now - game would not stop you in any way. But consequences would be there. To be able to remain blue while slaughtering all racial allies at vcps is a big flaw in world design in race wars oriented game.

Your argument against the argument I brought up is invalid, entirely.

If for example, Nomads, rats and Epoch ALL wish to remain blue clans, in order to get fights we would have to relocate somewhere else in the map?  you realise the map is not that big right? Don't know if you goto villages, but Epoch are really dedicated boys when it comes to Vcp,s, you will see them on nearly every village on mainland if it's in there power to do so. Your "move somewhere else"  just to avoid fighting same race and getting some Pvp, is quite frankly not a valid option here.


You may need to ask Painkillers how they do it since you're allied to them. Those guys used to only be on Ruby with naked alts hitting the mine. The moment we moved to center map, they started hitting the ruby vcps in full force. We come back for a couple days to have some fights and then they're capping villages on Cairn.

The server is one giant game of Whack-A-Mole. The population is so damn low that if there's even a 1% chance you'll lose at a vcp, you just move to another zone of vcps to get a cluster of uncontested content until your original cluster are no longer being capped because you bored the better skilled/numbers.

I agree that making ALL VCPs race incentivized is a step in the right direction. I personally feel the grey rogue shit needs to be taken out and then just go from there. Let the sandbox and politics dictate what happens. If you have 4+ Alfar clans all on one vcp, the guy who got there first is usually going to cap it anyways. It's up to the people there to decide if they want to knockback spam/grief everyone else or work as a team and start sending the other squads out to the next vcp
Fair enough ill be there, Actually can we do it Thurs
(ive been lugging boxes of books all morning from a collection I bought and a little beat)

Re: race wars
Reply #43
I dunno, I know it's a fair few months away, but what you want is already coming,  in racial warfronts.

Don't see them wasting yet more time on a feature that has already been reworked between all DF games God knows how many times already.

I'd rather see new stuff than more tweaks.

Re: race wars
Reply #44
I dunno, I know it's a fair few months away, but what you want is already coming,  in racial warfronts.

Don't see them wasting yet more time on a feature that has already been reworked between all DF games God knows how many times already.

I'd rather see new stuff than more tweaks.
It's not a bout tweaking a feature. It's about game foundation. It's about core mechanic being broken, flawed. Race wars were supposed to be selling point of darkfall new dawn. And what we are able to see from the glimpses of already implemented race wars changes it is something that can save this game. Meaningful pvp is what many have been waiting for.

Current vcp implementation is a relic of the past. Mindless FFA pvp, same race killing with no consequences.

Remove lawless, put races on bindstone instead of clans if they are not ARAC - done.
  • Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 08:42:41 pm by wildNothing