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Topic: @Ub3r How to spin it (Read 2362 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: @Ub3r How to spin it
Reply #75
Indeed, Darkfall has always been that type of game (which, once again agreed, is far more difficult to do than your standard "on-rails" game) - and it's always failed, and continues to fail, miserably at it. Mainly on behalf of both the consequences for a player's decisions, and the breadth and diversity of the decisions themselves, always having been alarmingly shallow.

All of this relentless emphasis on optimization and conquest, when the actual day-to-day game experience is considerably more shallow than any survival game you could pick off the shelf at random - and where does it lead? I was regularly perceived as the impractical one for believing there needed to be an underlying fundamental depth and richness to the game beyond the rinse repeat PVP nature with a Conquest Cherry on top and a couple supplementations on the side - but has the outcome entirely eschewing that depth and meaning been a practical one? I have my doubts the Devs will ever see it that way, though.

The problem is I dont think anyone knows, but my personal take on it is the game can only be successful if it gives non pvpers a niche to play in and right now only a few very hardy non fighters can find a niche, but even before that the game just needs to be complete, or at least mechanically complete ( i mean we still arent done with magic changes nor has the complete alignment/racial reinforcment system been put in).

I agree the game needs depth, the rpg part, but I also think they need to get their main road map done and then comes the time to get creative and fill in the lore and empty places as well as add layers of 'fluff', but until that initial road map is complete (ships, warhulks, watch towers and taxing, race wars with incentives) their is just too much core lacking to have 'giving depth' matter imho.

Re: @Ub3r How to spin it
Reply #76
@Helwyr

What I feel is a common misconception is that somehow the burden of proper sandbox "utilization" is on a game's playerbase. I never have and never will blame a playerbase for what becomes of a game, because that's dropping the buck under shallow pretenses where it doesn't belong.

The truth of the matter is that, universally, anything an end user is capable of, any way they're capable of behaving, any course of action they're capable of taking within a gameverse - all these must be identified, anticipated, accounted for, and developed around by the game developers, else the failure is entirely on them.

Players will merely act in accordance with their nature and the tools given them - if they're not behaving how you "designed the game" for them to behave, the failure is in the design, not in the behavior. I was around for what you described in Shadowbane, and I've never held the players accountable. Still, Shadowbane was a flawed, but brilliant game.

As for New Dawn? Its survival I'd say will be entirely contingent on the flexibility and adaptability of the developers. Nothing has ever exposed the weaknesses and critical frailties of Darkfall more than these two revivals have.

I would partially agree with you. While a lot of emphasis on a game's success has to be on the developers themselves, I don't think that excludes that any responsibility be placed also on the player base.  MMORPGs and especially sandbox ones are a collaborative creation, the players themselves create a great deal of the content, or at least are relied upon to create that content. Were it not so we would be talking more about themepark type games or "on the rails" type games as you described them, where players actions and choices are almost selected for them.

That said while we may disagree somewhat on where the responsibility lies, the conclusion is largely the same. Sandbox MMORPGs simply cannot succeed at this time. The amount of development resources required to fulfill the requirement that in a sandbox MMORPG "anything an end user is capable of, any way they're capable of behaving, any course of action they're capable of taking within a gameverse - all these must be identified, anticipated, accounted for, and developed around by the game developers" is simply astronomical, and impossible for the small development teams that create these sandbox games. Where the player base could pick up the slack the current gaming community has demonstrated an incapacity to do so.

So as I earlier concluded in the near term the future of PvP MMORPGs is with games taking the Realm vs Realm concept to the next level. Games that were we to put MMORPGs on a spectrum of themepark to sandbox fall somewhere in the middle.

Re: @Ub3r How to spin it
Reply #77
@Helwyr Responsability, is 100% on developers.
If I go out to eat, and the foods bad, I don't blame the other customers. I blame the guy who cooked it.
If there is a bad atmosphere, its the managements fault for not dealing with it.

@Mycke
People keep talking about Niche, theres plenty of games with fucking PVE, trading, crafting ect, that ALL do it better than DND. They are all Darkfalls WORST points. PVP was its best, THAT was it's niche.

I dueled him once and was in control first half of the fight and then food buff wore out and not noticing lost, so he did win but hes by no means any better a player than I.

Re: @Ub3r How to spin it
Reply #78
@Helwyr Responsability, is 100% on developers.
If I go out to eat, and the foods bad, I don't blame the other customers. I blame the guy who cooked it.
If there is a bad atmosphere, its the managements fault for not dealing with it.

@Mycke
People keep talking about Niche, theres plenty of games with fucking PVE, trading, crafting ect, that ALL do it better than DND. They are all Darkfalls WORST points. PVP was its best, THAT was it's niche.

First, to address what you said to Mycke;  You're right that it's the PvP that's the core of Darkfall's gameplay, and sets it apart from other MMORPGs. However, it's not alone in isolation that makes Darkfall's PvP both a niche and something special. Strip away all the sandbox and RPG stuff from Darkfall and the PvP doesn't really stand out. You turn Darkfall into an Arena PvP game, a MOBA, or something like that it really doesn't stand up to the alternatives any better than the PvE, trading, and crafting. It's only in its complete promised form that Darkfall stands apart as something unique and special. Its individual parts including the PvP are rather lackluster when stood alone.

A restaurant is probably not the most accurate analogy, but I'll run with it just for fun. What you have is someone opening a fine dinning restaurant in a neighborhood that has a lot drunken yobs and low level criminals.  The restaurateurs know there's a section of community in this neighborhood that aren't being catered to and would appreciate what they're bringing to the area. The problem is the budget for the restaurant is fairly low and it's going to take time to build up a customer base and really provide the dining experience they want to deliver and many of their customers want. So, in order to open they're going to have to open with a good portion of the menu unavailable, not enough staff to provide speedy service, never mind the security staff they ought to have to keep the drunks in order and the criminals out. The alternative to this half assed launch of the restaurant is to abandon the project altogether.

So what happens, the restaurant fails to attract nearly as many people as it had hoped, a good portion of those people are the drunks and criminals that act like a bunch of chimpanzees and trash the place. Word gets around, more than half the menu isn't available, there's a full bar but all its done is attract a bunch of drunken chimpanzees that trash the place, the service is slow, and improvements slower still. And there it is a business on the fast track to failure.

So who's to blame? Well it depends on who you ask...

Naturally the restaurateurs are ultimately responsible for the success or failure of their business. But at the same time they were providing a service wanted by a good portion of the community living in the area that no one else is going to step in and provide.

The fine dinners might well lay the blame at the restaurateur for only having tiny menu much smaller than they had promised and feel had they only had a more substantial menu the restaurant would have attracted many more fine dinners to fill seats rather than all the drunks, and with the revenue they might well have been able to get an even larger menu along with some security. But hey something is better than nothing, so they may also blame the drunken chimpanzees for ruining what little there was and scaring away potential new clientele.

The drunks on the other hand who do they blame? I mean the place has a bar, with some nice beer but damn do they take ages to pour the damn stuff, but what fools give a fuck about the food and this ambience shit. The bar is still open, but now even the other drunks aren't showing up. Did they all go hang outside the McDonalds drinking booze from the liquor store with the dozen other drunks like that Seronys guy kept telling them to do? A few perhaps, but most just blame the Restaurateurs, they should have never tried to open a fine dinning restaurant in the first place, should have just opened a Chuck E Cheese.

Re: @Ub3r How to spin it
Reply #79
@Helwyr Responsability, is 100% on developers.
If I go out to eat, and the foods bad, I don't blame the other customers. I blame the guy who cooked it.
If there is a bad atmosphere, its the managements fault for not dealing with it.

@Mycke
People keep talking about Niche, theres plenty of games with fucking PVE, trading, crafting ect, that ALL do it better than DND. They are all Darkfalls WORST points. PVP was its best, THAT was it's niche.

First, to address what you said to Mycke;  You're right that it's the PvP that's the core of Darkfall's gameplay, and sets it apart from other MMORPGs. However, it's not alone in isolation that makes Darkfall's PvP both a niche and something special. Strip away all the sandbox and RPG stuff from Darkfall and the PvP doesn't really stand out. You turn Darkfall into an Arena PvP game, a MOBA, or something like that it really doesn't stand up to the alternatives any better than the PvE, trading, and crafting. It's only in its complete promised form that Darkfall stands apart as something unique and special. Its individual parts including the PvP are rather lackluster when stood alone.

A restaurant is probably not the most accurate analogy, but I'll run with it just for fun. What you have is someone opening a fine dinning restaurant in a neighborhood that has a lot drunken yobs and low level criminals.  The restaurateurs know there's a section of community in this neighborhood that aren't being catered to and would appreciate what they're bringing to the area. The problem is the budget for the restaurant is fairly low and it's going to take time to build up a customer base and really provide the dining experience they want to deliver and many of their customers want. So, in order to open they're going to have to open with a good portion of the menu unavailable, not enough staff to provide speedy service, never mind the security staff they ought to have to keep the drunks in order and the criminals out. The alternative to this half assed launch of the restaurant is to abandon the project altogether.

So what happens, the restaurant fails to attract nearly as many people as it had hoped, a good portion of those people are the drunks and criminals that act like a bunch of chimpanzees and trash the place. Word gets around, more than half the menu isn't available, there's a full bar but all its done is attract a bunch of drunken chimpanzees that trash the place, the service is slow, and improvements slower still. And there it is a business on the fast track to failure.

So who's to blame? Well it depends on who you ask...

Naturally the restaurateurs are ultimately responsible for the success or failure of their business. But at the same time they were providing a service wanted by a good portion of the community living in the area that no one else is going to step in and provide.

The fine dinners might well lay the blame at the restaurateur for only having tiny menu much smaller than they had promised and feel had they only had a more substantial menu the restaurant would have attracted many more fine dinners to fill seats rather than all the drunks, and with the revenue they might well have been able to get an even larger menu along with some security. But hey something is better than nothing, so they may also blame the drunken chimpanzees for ruining what little there was and scaring away potential new clientele.

The drunks on the other hand who do they blame? I mean the place has a bar, with some nice beer but damn do they take ages to pour the damn stuff, but what fools give a fuck about the food and this ambience shit. The bar is still open, but now even the other drunks aren't showing up. Did they all go hang outside the McDonalds drinking booze from the liquor store with the dozen other drunks like that Seronys guy kept telling them to do? A few perhaps, but most just blame the Restaurateurs, they should have never tried to open a fine dinning restaurant in the first place, should have just opened a Chuck E Cheese.

I found this to be an excellent analogy on many levels ;)

  • SomeBK
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: @Ub3r How to spin it
Reply #80
Hey, Chuckie Cheese upped their game. Their food is better than hooters and I get to play the NFL accuracy game with my kid
Fair enough ill be there, Actually can we do it Thurs
(ive been lugging boxes of books all morning from a collection I bought and a little beat)

  • mrW
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: @Ub3r How to spin it
Reply #81
Hey, Chuckie Cheese upped their game. Their food is better than hooters and I get to play the NFL accuracy game with my kid
This post is more 'murrican than Dragonx's posts on banging escort girls.

Quote
"Our title system is an expansion of the titles in the same spirit than the destroyer title. These will NOT be classes and will be completely optional."

  • SomeBK
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: @Ub3r How to spin it
Reply #82
Hey, Chuckie Cheese upped their game. Their food is better than hooters and I get to play the NFL accuracy game with my kid
This post is more 'murrican than Dragonx's posts on banging escort girls.
Of course it is. Dragonx is one of those Asian dudes you see at the gym who acts like he can pull hot chicks but the reality is his game is so weak he has to pay for chicks to go out with him
Fair enough ill be there, Actually can we do it Thurs
(ive been lugging boxes of books all morning from a collection I bought and a little beat)

Re: @Ub3r How to spin it
Reply #83
Sorry guys but what's the point of calling something "relaunching" if you are not going to wipe? :D

better to go through the expansion route.

Re: @Ub3r How to spin it
Reply #84
Everything is fine, the skinning patch fixed the game.

My missus is fit actually I cant beleive she still has sex with me

New Dawn Best UI Winner 2018 - Add me on Snapchat - tinydicksteve69

Re: @Ub3r How to spin it
Reply #85
We will never get rid  of the drunken monkeys   :))

  • mrW
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: @Ub3r How to spin it
Reply #86
Sorry guys but what's the point of calling something "relaunching" if you are not going to wipe? :D

better to go through the expansion route.
The trick is to first disguise it as an expansion, something like DnD: 2019 (codename DnD Arena) and assure the community there will be no wipe (we are at the latter stage already). Then sometime in 2019 when more features are implemented, just launch a game with new name (i.e. DnD Wars). It would be a new game, so technically still no wipe.

Oh wait, this sounds faniliar to some other game I played some years ago..


Quote
"Our title system is an expansion of the titles in the same spirit than the destroyer title. These will NOT be classes and will be completely optional."

Re: @Ub3r How to spin it
Reply #87
@Helwyr Responsability, is 100% on developers.
If I go out to eat, and the foods bad, I don't blame the other customers. I blame the guy who cooked it.
If there is a bad atmosphere, its the managements fault for not dealing with it.

@Mycke
People keep talking about Niche, theres plenty of games with fucking PVE, trading, crafting ect, that ALL do it better than DND. They are all Darkfalls WORST points. PVP was its best, THAT was it's niche.

First, to address what you said to Mycke;  You're right that it's the PvP that's the core of Darkfall's gameplay, and sets it apart from other MMORPGs. However, it's not alone in isolation that makes Darkfall's PvP both a niche and something special. Strip away all the sandbox and RPG stuff from Darkfall and the PvP doesn't really stand out. You turn Darkfall into an Arena PvP game, a MOBA, or something like that it really doesn't stand up to the alternatives any better than the PvE, trading, and crafting. It's only in its complete promised form that Darkfall stands apart as something unique and special. Its individual parts including the PvP are rather lackluster when stood alone.

A restaurant is probably not the most accurate analogy, but I'll run with it just for fun. What you have is someone opening a fine dinning restaurant in a neighborhood that has a lot drunken yobs and low level criminals.  The restaurateurs know there's a section of community in this neighborhood that aren't being catered to and would appreciate what they're bringing to the area. The problem is the budget for the restaurant is fairly low and it's going to take time to build up a customer base and really provide the dining experience they want to deliver and many of their customers want. So, in order to open they're going to have to open with a good portion of the menu unavailable, not enough staff to provide speedy service, never mind the security staff they ought to have to keep the drunks in order and the criminals out. The alternative to this half assed launch of the restaurant is to abandon the project altogether.

So what happens, the restaurant fails to attract nearly as many people as it had hoped, a good portion of those people are the drunks and criminals that act like a bunch of chimpanzees and trash the place. Word gets around, more than half the menu isn't available, there's a full bar but all its done is attract a bunch of drunken chimpanzees that trash the place, the service is slow, and improvements slower still. And there it is a business on the fast track to failure.

So who's to blame? Well it depends on who you ask...

Naturally the restaurateurs are ultimately responsible for the success or failure of their business. But at the same time they were providing a service wanted by a good portion of the community living in the area that no one else is going to step in and provide.

The fine dinners might well lay the blame at the restaurateur for only having tiny menu much smaller than they had promised and feel had they only had a more substantial menu the restaurant would have attracted many more fine dinners to fill seats rather than all the drunks, and with the revenue they might well have been able to get an even larger menu along with some security. But hey something is better than nothing, so they may also blame the drunken chimpanzees for ruining what little there was and scaring away potential new clientele.

The drunks on the other hand who do they blame? I mean the place has a bar, with some nice beer but damn do they take ages to pour the damn stuff, but what fools give a fuck about the food and this ambience shit. The bar is still open, but now even the other drunks aren't showing up. Did they all go hang outside the McDonalds drinking booze from the liquor store with the dozen other drunks like that Seronys guy kept telling them to do? A few perhaps, but most just blame the Restaurateurs, they should have never tried to open a fine dinning restaurant in the first place, should have just opened a Chuck E Cheese.

DND has no beer tho. No food. No tables or chairs. Just an empty bar with a waiter on a fag brake.

I dueled him once and was in control first half of the fight and then food buff wore out and not noticing lost, so he did win but hes by no means any better a player than I.

  • SomeBK
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: @Ub3r How to spin it
Reply #88
These days they just vape their little pens thinking they're cool AF
Fair enough ill be there, Actually can we do it Thurs
(ive been lugging boxes of books all morning from a collection I bought and a little beat)

Re: @Ub3r How to spin it
Reply #89
DND has no beer tho. No food. No tables or chairs. Just an empty bar with a waiter on a fag brake.

There was beer, now it's gone, unless you count the vomit.