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Poll

Do you top up meditation and log out if nothing is going on in clan/alliance?

  • Yes, I top up meditation and log off if nothing is happening
  • No, I keep meditation topped up but I play actively also
  • Neither, I try to keep meditation topped up but it's not my priority
  • I don't bother keeping meditation topped up and log out if nothing is happening

Topic: I think meditation is too appealing (Read 940 times) previous topic - next topic

I think meditation is too appealing
I honestly see mediation as too appealing a feature, especially for people in groups that are not actively doing something all the time. I understand the gain rate is low compared to active play, but when you reach level 75 in a spell or skill it's honestly a chore to grind it further than that (I understand it's not essential to do so with front loading, but still, people do it anyway.)

When you factor in,
- group decision (what you are going to do)
- where you are going to do it
- gearing up/prep work for the activity
- travel time
- loot/skinning time
- possibility of death in PVP
- travel back home
- split loot
- bank loot

A lot of time passes during all that where you are not even getting gains at all. People see this as a reason to simply logoff and meditate.

I'm honestly thinking active play needs a boost in gains, especially for solo play. I just stood whacking mobs with a 1h, from level 66 to level 67, it took me around 35 minutes. I had the mob scaled to level 2 and was next to no downtime.

Meditating that would have taken me about 5 hours. But the issue comes when I get that skill to level 80 onwards. Active play is just not rewarded enough for gains. I'd rather see a boost in active play which sets up the mentality even more, that active play is ALWAYS better than not. Which just doesn't seem the case.

I haven't even mentioned magic, I'm personally having a hard time levelling up infliction as most the mobs we group PVE on are bloody immune to it...meditating is my only option when it comes to that, same for a lot of other skills/spells.

Discuss, constructively if possible..

Re: I think meditation is too appealing
Reply #1
I 100% agree with you.

One of first things I think Ub3rgames could do is make Meditation only work a maximum of 16 hours per day.
Same as Power Hour makes people log in, if meditation does not work they will log in to actively play.

It is pretty weird that meditation gives the same amount of skill per time, no matter the current skill level (yes, I know that meditation cost increases and is based on current skill level), and hence becomes the best way to get last few points in anything, especially in Magic Schools (which you NEED at 100 just to unlock last spell / tool from your school).
Wyverex Erisian, SG of Scrubs


Still a member of SaltyBitches™ Club

Re: I think meditation is too appealing
Reply #2
I 100% agree with you.

One of first things I think Ub3rgames could do is make Meditation only work a maximum of 16 hours per day.
[/b]Same as Power Hour makes people log in, if meditation does not work they will log in to actively play.

It is pretty weird that meditation gives the same amount of skill per time, no matter the current skill level (yes, I know that meditation cost increases and is based on current skill level), and hence becomes the best way to get last few points in anything, especially in Magic Schools (which you NEED at 100 just to unlock last spell / tool from your school).

That's just it. Meditation was only ever designed to be a top up for when you can't play, or a way for casuals to try and keep up with their characters. Somewhere along the line, it's gone horribly wrong.

Not a bad idea having a time restriction on it. But don't you think boosting active play is better than simply nerfing offline play? tricky one I guess.

Re: I think meditation is too appealing
Reply #3
Not a bad idea having a time restriction on it. But don't you think boosting active play is better than simply nerfing offline play? tricky one I guess.
Why not do a bit of both? :)

Meditation is definitely a weird one.
Wyverex Erisian, SG of Scrubs


Still a member of SaltyBitches™ Club

Re: I think meditation is too appealing
Reply #4
But the issue comes when I get that skill to level 80 onwards.
As you have realized: Thanks to front loading, trying to grind anything above 75 is a complete waste of time. Also meditating it above 75 is wasted points. You can consider the skill / spell maxed at 75. The difference of the effective damage output between 75 and 100 is like 1 point, if at all.
This is like paying €10.000 for tuning your car to make it drive 1 km/h faster on the highway.

Also the Meditation points cost is increasing significantly later on, up to a point where it costs 2k+ points per hour. So if anybody wants to meditate anything above 75 they are bascially forced to play the game actively to acquire the required points.

Don't make the game even more casual unfriendly by forcing (casual) players to login or to fall behind even more, because some min-maxers think Meditation is too appealing.
Meditation was always meant as a catch-up tool for casuals and to make the grind less a "burden". Thats why it is less rewarding than actively playing.

If you go and play, you skill up more than just that one skill / spell. You skill your stats, get loot, level other skills and spells (Heal Other / Sacrifice), etc. While when meditating the skill, you only meditate the skill and nothing else. No mastery, no stats, etc.

I think Meditation is fine.

Re: I think meditation is too appealing
Reply #5
Honestly, i disagree.
As you said, active play is already more rewarding time-wise compared to meditation and, moreover, you need to play to get, it is not gifted to you: either it being villages conquest, dailies, quests or maps, you have to play in order to keep it up.
Meditating low level skills/stats it's (imho) a waste of points since you will level them up much faster than meditating; the opposite is true that, at high levels of skill/stats, you'll probably better use that meditation to help you with the grind.

For example i never meditate anything less than 50 (unless i really want to boost the speed i level up because it is either something really slow, like secondary magic skills, or because i really need/want it) and generally alternate between something medium level (50/75) and something high level (75+) based on how much meditation i have.

Most of the time i am managing to keep up my meditation, but just because i alternate and, even doing this, i still play nearly every night 2-3 hours a day and sometimes i even need to do some "meditation" night in order to replenish it.

So, to me, meditation is fine where it is: it requires you to play to keep it up and helps you grind when you are offline.
I have never felt the "need" to not play so that i can skill up faster both because i have fun playing and because i can skill while i play, and skill some more when i am not playing...so why shouldn't i still play?

P.s: a clanmate of mine just took 1hb to skill it up yesterday and, in just a single power hour, with lv4 mobs, he is already at 25 skill....you can reach 50 level in some skills (not spells, some of them level up ridiculously slow) in just a pair of days of grinding, so there is no way meditation will ever beat that (and considering how many different things you can train in darkfall, i doubt you'll not have something to skill up while playing that you can do better than meditating it)
  • Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 05:29:08 pm by dariobrun

Re: I think meditation is too appealing
Reply #6
Quote from: HarvestR link=msg=148058

Don't make the game even more casual unfriendly by forcing (casual) players to login or to fall behind even more, because some min-maxers think Meditation is too appealing.
Meditation was always meant as a catch-up tool for casuals and to make the grind less a "burden". Thats why it is less rewarding than actively playing.

If you go and play, you skill up more than just that one skill / spell. You skill your stats, get loot, level other skills and spells (Heal Other / Sacrifice), etc. While when meditating the skill, you only meditate the skill and nothing else. No mastery, no stats, etc.

I think Meditation is fine.

You do skill faster actively playing, but as I stated, there is much more downtime on any skilling just from the simple prep and travel of doing an activity.

The gap between actively playing and meditating is no where near as large as it looks on paper.

As for shafting casuals. Then that's just a silly comment, because those who play more than casuals, earn more meditation points and thus can actually spend even more to max out any stat, as alot already have. Contrary to what you think, meditation does not serve casual players right now. It serves everyone just the same.

Re: I think meditation is too appealing
Reply #7
But the issue comes when I get that skill to level 80 onwards.
As you have realized: Thanks to front loading, trying to grind anything above 75 is a complete waste of time. Also meditating it above 75 is wasted points. You can consider the skill / spell maxed at 75. The difference of the effective damage output between 75 and 100 is like 1 point, if at all.
This is like paying €10.000 for tuning your car to make it drive 1 km/h faster on the highway.

Also the Meditation points cost is increasing significantly later on, up to a point where it costs 2k+ points per hour. So if anybody wants to meditate anything above 75 they are bascially forced to play the game actively to acquire the required points.

Don't make the game even more casual unfriendly by forcing (casual) players to login or to fall behind even more, because some min-maxers think Meditation is too appealing.
Meditation was always meant as a catch-up tool for casuals and to make the grind less a "burden". Thats why it is less rewarding than actively playing.

If you go and play, you skill up more than just that one skill / spell. You skill your stats, get loot, level other skills and spells (Heal Other / Sacrifice), etc. While when meditating the skill, you only meditate the skill and nothing else. No mastery, no stats, etc.

I think Meditation is fine.
This is mostly true and I agree with it... but the issue is, mages NEED schools at 100.

PS for anyone interested in Frontloading numbers:
* For skills going 1-100 (ie spells)
- 30 = 50%
- 50 = 75%
- 68 = 90%
** For skills going 1-200 (ie melee weapon + mastery)
- 60 = 50%
- 100 = 75%
- 136 = 90%

PPS those numbers don't represent "50% of damage this spell does", they represent "50% of bonus you get from from going from 1 to max"
Wyverex Erisian, SG of Scrubs


Still a member of SaltyBitches™ Club

Re: I think meditation is too appealing
Reply #8
... silly comment ...
There goes the "constructive discussion". That didn't take long.

downtime [...] from [...] prep and travel
This makes little sense. You said leveling from 66 to 67 took you 35 minutes, while meditation would have taken 5 hours. So you still leveled ~8.6 times faster, even with preparation and travel, compared to meditation.
Also if you don't like downtime and travel, just stay to the nearest NPC / Chaos City or Wilderness Bank for a few days while leveling. Nobody said that you need to travel from Yssam to Ork lands just to level for an hour and then travel back.

because those who play more than casuals, earn more meditation points and thus can actually spend even more to max out any stat [...] It serves everyone just the same.
No, because those who play more meditate less and don't meditate more. And those with more meditation points don't meditate faster. Thus those who play more, level faster through actively playing and not through meditation.

Meditation primarily serves as a catch-up mechanism for those who can't (or don't want to) actively play every day for X hours. It is less rewarding than active playing. Screwing them over by nerfing meditation gains or even limiting meditation time is a bad idea.

Re: I think meditation is too appealing
Reply #9
I only log in to get meditation points then I log out. 

I AFK harvest on my crafter characters.

But this is mostly due to my busy real life. 

Re: I think meditation is too appealing
Reply #10
I think the real issue is that grinding isn't fun. There is not content outside of mindless grinding and staring at your skill gains.

In the regard meditating and playing something else is the way to go. It all falls to the same thing, bring forth content and the topic will change.

Re: I think meditation is too appealing
Reply #11
We were doing lvl 35 high-end mobs for skillup. One power hour got me from 90 to a bit short of 92 Earth Magic, and that was with a Blackbolt and a player who was constantly spamming Lend Mana on me.

I burned.

Then I logged off, and woke up with Earth 100.
Meditation definitely saved me from uninstalling and burning out. But it was not used as a catch up. That's the issue some keep ignoring.
Wyverex Erisian, SG of Scrubs


Still a member of SaltyBitches™ Club

Re: I think meditation is too appealing
Reply #12
Meditating gets you the same amount of points per hour regardless of how high the skill/attribute is. Med point costs are largely irrelevant. If active skill gains scaled better with mob difficulty, and lot was worth a damn, we wouldn't be there. Right now, even lvl 15+ red mobs make no sense for progression past ~75.

Better off hitting the same two dungeons for your power hour, make 15k med, 15k gold, some enchanting mats, log off.

Funnily enough, the power hour was supposed to be an incentive to log on but is backfiring. People tend to log off / afk farm when it's not available and no villages are up.

Re: I think meditation is too appealing
Reply #13
Funnily enough, the power hour was supposed to be an incentive to log on but is backfiring. People tend to log off / afk farm when it's not available and no villages are up.
Indeed.

Timer based features / content should not have a place in a sandbox game, yet they are the main features that make people log in currently.
Wyverex Erisian, SG of Scrubs


Still a member of SaltyBitches™ Club

Re: I think meditation is too appealing
Reply #14
I personally feel fucked by the system as a solo player with only one dungeon quest available to my race that pays a now 3639 med points for completing.  I cannot do VCPs.   Chaos Chests are bit easier to find though at least.

It's only a matter of time before I run totally out of meditation points, in spite of playing the game (but not "grinding") far more than the average player.
@Crisply Vague

It was already mentioned in this thread: Unless you are a Mage and want to get a School to 100, you don't need any skill or stat beyond 75. The difference between 75 and 100 is very small and not worth the grind or the meditation points.

Regarding getting meditation points: Simply put, you are doing it wrong. Dungeons and VCP are not the only sources for meditation points.

I'm living in Sanguine since a few weeks and don't participate much in any clan activities at the moment. Still I have no problem getting enough meditation points, even without Dungeons or VCP. At the moment I have 77.5k meditation points without doing any Dungeon or VCP since a while.

- 1 hour Troll hunt quest: Rewards you 4k+ meditation points if you score above 120 kills, plus 4k+ gold, a ton of Sulfur, Bone, Cloth, Eggs, Q1 and Q2 enchanting mats. No cooldown and repeatable as often as you want.

- 1 hour X hunt quest: There are more such quests around the area. Not only Trolls, but also Spiders, Goblins, Kobolds, etc.

- Daily Meat quest: Deliver 12 Meat to a Merchant: Rewards you 1k+ meditation points. Repeatable 3 times for the 3 starter cities (Monkfield, Heart of Eanna, Sandbrook for instance). Unlocked during the quest chain starting at the Councillor of the city.

- Doing the quest chains in each of the 3 starter cities and the starter cities of your Race alliance: Rewards you way over 10k+ meditation points half way through and enough other stuff just for one quest chain in one city.

People make the mistake and think only Dungeons and VCP are the best way to get meditation points, but this is not correct. No wonder you are getting "bored out".
  • Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 03:00:10 pm by nuclearping