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Topic: Visualization & sound effect on everything.  (Read 705 times) previous topic - next topic

Visualization & sound effect on everything.
Just like my other thread (everything blockable), i think we should be able to tell what's going on at all time no matter what.

When you're blind, ppl around should know it. When you get debuffed, ppl around should know it and be able to tell what exactly you got going on. Same with buffs, ppl around should be able to tell what you got.

Usually, it's only that way for damaging spells. We know when someone is on fire, dots, electrocuted, iced, rocked...
We just never know what status effect somebody got on him and i see that as a problem. As a result, we must rely too much on System box to see if a debuff sticked or not and i personally never brought up the system box because i don't like to have too much things going on my screen.

In DF UW, when you scan a player with your cross-hair, you can see what status effect he got on. While it's good that way, i think it should work on a visual level as-well, not just with the UI.

That does not mean i want the new DF UW system where damage and healing flies over their head like in every mmo's.
In fact, i wish for the sound detection option to be removed since removing it from the option menu yourself simply puts you at a disadvantage which means that it's stupid to not check the sound-detection for everytime you hit something. Plus, it sounds terrible so while i don't want it, it's a must.

visual and sound effect on everything going on or with the UI when you scan a player. Remove Sound detection everytime you hit something in the name of immersion.

Re: Visualization & sound effect on everything.
Reply #1
This is a YES for the visual/audio cues for effects. But later, when we have the asset pipeline set up.

We agree with the sentiment, the more player know about their opponent, the better. However, we would like to keep some room for surprises, but as it is we could add some more knowledge without hurting the "mind games". Especially since we will be adding more "states" to the game.
We do not want to have simple gui or above head icons, so we will need to do animations/particle effects. We also don't want them to be too intrusive, which will mean working hard on not having characters become las vegas casinos.
This is a good feature, but requires assets and work for hard to quantify gains. It will be medium priority.

As for removing hit sound, that is a NO.
Feedback is a lot in video games. We can't really "feel" a hit and the medium of a screen is inferior to our reality and our eyes. The hit sound is a necessary evil unless we find something better to replace it. We won't be looking into it any time soon. Sorry.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Visualization & sound effect on everything.
Reply #2

As for removing hit sound, that is a NO.
Feedback is a lot in video games. We can't really "feel" a hit and the medium of a screen is inferior to our reality and our eyes. The hit sound is a necessary evil unless we find something better to replace it. We won't be looking into it any time soon. Sorry.

I guess we should vote for that or debate since you and i know that not everyone is in favor of hit-sound, but when it's in a game that is as competitive as DFO, it's dumb to remove it from the option menu. In other words, there's no option, we take what's best for us.

For example, when you shoot a random magma bomb somewhere you can't see, you need hit-sound to be able to tell if a player was right there. For that same reason, i'm also against the System box; they're only tools that can be used as scans for when ever you can't see or for when the distance is too far away to be able to hear something unusual.
Because of system, you can't sneak in cities as-well, i just hate it. So can you realize how much it breaks immersion and war tactics? Totally.
Players use a script in their mumble or ventrilo that plays a sound for when ever players get in their city (''Warning, 10 Sick bastards in Long March). It was bad to a point where i stopped joining clans without that type of script because it was so damn good.
Players had to pay others with gold just get this script.

Generally, we use hit-sound to be able to tell how many players are in there without the need to go in there yourself. This also mean that you can't possibly ambush a player when he knows what's coming. sneaking in to see how many there is is completely obsolete if you don't need to be completely in silent since we can just cast Inferno in a choke point that you can't see.
With the system, you can then count how many different names there is. ''Ho, there's 10 players. Let's retreat for now''.

Players usually shoot magma bombs far away to be able to tell who they're gonna fight next. ''Ho god, it's itwas luck, i'm leaving''. That's what i do since i refuse to fight itwas luck, he's the type who can kill me in matter of seconds.
Ppl chose their fights wisely so it would be wise to remove easy-mode tools that can help players count how many there is and who they're about to face.

Back on system, i don't want it to be completely removed, but it shouldn't be as helpful as it was on everything.
Do you know one FPS game with a chat system that does anything more than noting assist, kills, death and objectives taken? Not me.
When ever it becomes a part of combat, it's bad. So like i said, if it can be used as a scan, it's bad.
Add a spell that can scan which can also add enemy dots on the mini-map instead if you want an actual scan so bad in the game.


Hit sound should only work on single target type of attacks like arrows, bolts, rays, melee attacks.
  • Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 06:25:14 pm by Bloodymurderer

Re: Visualization & sound effect on everything.
Reply #3
There will be no votes. Design decisions should not be popularity contests.
However, you are making a good case, and that is the only way to get us to change our minds.

One thing about system chat in general is that we intend on relying on it to create gameplay. As you probably know, the watchtower network extends holdings detection radius and enables "pin pointing" enemy movement as they switch from one watchtower detection radius to the other. We intend to use that to let players prepare and ride out to meed the invaders.
In a way, we will implement those scripts you mentioned into the game for all to use equally.

We agree that having hit sound in the game as an option is a non-choice. You either play at a disadvantage or activate the sounds. A first step would be to have the option on by default, and let people it annoys disable it. However, we have a memory of disliking the lack of feedback without the hit sounds, and that is an immersion factor. Not knowing if they've hit or not reminds players that they are only in a game. After a while, the brain abstracts the sound and takes it as a neutral sensory feeling. It's no longer a "thunk" but just a signal processed as "good, I hit".
As of now, we do not see a better way to implement this, so we are "stuck" with it.

We also liked to see creative uses of the hit sound, for instance a death fog or a blizzard on a choke point to know if you are being followed. But as you said, a scouting spell would fill that niche. (We actually had plans for a trap item serving that purpose) But is it necessary? We see that use as a positive. That you had the choice to avoid specific fights add to the strategy layer and to the virtual world/social aspect with renown. Also note that if we succeed with our alignment changes, you won't be attacking everyone you see moving just to scout them. You should end up being more cautious with your damage and the scouting spell/item will have a use and can be balanced around being expensive reagents/mats wise.

Even if we removed the hit sound from aoes,  how would one notice improvement or do tests without a system chat combat log?
Those kind of information are important for players, especially in a PvP game. It is usually the first mod/plugin/add on developed in other MMOs. At this point, it is hard to imagine the game without the combat log somewhere.

In conclusion, the game should provide ways to not have the system chat open: Visual and audio cues for buffs/debuffs and other states like low stamina/mana, and hit sounds are part of these non-text feedback tools.
But we can't remove information from the system box, gamers love numbers and min maxing. We also think scouting was an accidentally interesting game mechanic.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Visualization & sound effect on everything.
Reply #4
You're wrong in one part. Even with a perfect alignment system, you don't get punished for becoming gray, you get punished to kill a blue player afterwards. So no matter where you chose to take the alignment system, it won't change the fact that players use AOE's as a scan. Beside, it already goes in favor of red players.

I disliked watch towers for that reason exactly. In every mmorpg's there's always a sneaky way to play, but it's always done in a cheap way with invisibility and sush. In DFO, houses were the best places to hide in but, houses were used for heavy warriors since they're the one with the advantage in close quarter. So you had to be a warrior to be the sneaky type for raids.
I would personally prefer an alarm, bell-towers with a button you must activate or simply an item or emote that players can use to let everyone else know there's a raiding party. Why not? Let's make the game less quake(aka arcadish) and more immersive on some aspect.
That does not mean that i wish for zap towers to be removed, i only wish that zap towers were actual arrow towers or something fair that players can see coming and dodge; something very subtle, not something used to pin point exactly where the enemy is.
Or, screw that and add actual guards, but i know, we can't have it that early.
I also wish watch towers had limited amount of ammo's that must be refilled

Like i said in my alternative, you can remove it for AOE's only. Keep it for single target type abilities or direct hit like a direct fire-ball. Hit detection on AOE'S holds no satisfaction and you know it. Everything else is used as a scan and you should know that.

A trap, necessary or not adds more flavor in the game. If you remove hit sounds completely or on AOE'S only, you won't think twice about adding traps or spells that can be used to keep track of the opposition.
With hit sound heavily nerfed or removed, it gives you a reason to revisit Beacon since in reality, no one use it.
If you end up having to balance spells or their cost based on the fact that they can be used as scans, then you might as-well remove hit sounds lol. There should be no thought in that. Remove it or it should just not work on AOE's.

I don't care what wow does, i care about DFO. When you play wow, you feel like you're in an helicopter. You get no feeling of being in 100% control or inside of your character. This is why we like DFO so much, it's nothing like that. In wow, you see all type of numbers flying over-heads. In wow... well, what works for wow will never be good for DFO because DFO is much more competitive than wow so we take it a lot more seriously. This is why i never use script or addons when i play wow to win.

As for combat log, this is why i want it removed. When i was talking about system chat, i meant to say combat log. It should only be used for kills, death and pve. Who you killed, who killed you, who revived you...

When you say gamers love numbers? Who do you got in mind? In DFO, there's a proverb we like to repeat. DF is not for everyone. Welcome to DF. Gamers don't like full loot. We just want what's good for DF.
Beside, there's no crit. The damage done is always the same except when it's a AOE, but again, you get no satisfaction from AOE damages done. Ppl don't just like numbers, they like big numbers. There's nothing like that in DFO.
You can also add dummies or a training room that players can use to calculate damages done.
  • Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 08:22:49 pm by Bloodymurderer

Re: Visualization & sound effect on everything.
Reply #5
But being grey means more if red means something.
Imagine a game world where racial allies don't attack each other. A single damage spell would represent an higher level of aggression and would mean escalation. In such a context, one should be more careful before breaching the covenant.
It will be a different server culture. Hopefully an immersive one where people don't punch each other to say hi.

We were talking about our watchtowers system, not the npc zap towers. For the zap towerss, that's a different discussion as they don't impact the system chat but are actual "in game" feedback. That said, we could have a better "field of view" function so that they can be fooled, ammo would be a cool improvement too. Make it pay a resource and it will add to the economy. But that will be low priority and another discussion for a later point.

About the combat log, numbers are even more important in a "competitive" environment. Death recaps are the most important UI feature in most of these games. It has nothing to do with wow or scripts, and even less with "DF is not for everyone", but everything to do with providing information to the players. Which is something you seem to agree with since you have suggested stamina/mana bars and this very thread about visible buffs/debuffs.
And since fights in DF matter, it is important to get data in "real" situations. Knowledge is power.

We can try to experiment with hit sounds by removing them from aoes. We could also try to have a delayed combat log (like for streamers) but both are necessary for the game's well beings.

However, we want spells/items to be able to keep track of players. We do not see scanning/scouting as a gameplay issue.
If we remove combat log and hit sounds, then we will need to implement alternatives.
So before we invest time in it, think about it: aside from immersion, is it a gameplay issue?

The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Visualization & sound effect on everything.
Reply #6

We can try to experiment with hit sounds by removing them from aoes. We could also try to have a delayed combat log (like for streamers) but both are necessary for the game's well beings.

However, we want spells/items to be able to keep track of players. We do not see scanning/scouting as a gameplay issue.
If we remove combat log and hit sounds, then we will need to implement alternatives.
So before we invest time in it, think about it: aside from immersion, is it a gameplay issue?

To me, everything can be used to enhance your gameplay. We're all smart players in DFO. We can take something inoffensive and use them as something helpful for any type of situation. For example, i use the Way-point to kill Shadow knights solo. are you curious enough to know how i do it? Regardless, without a way-point, i wouldn't be able to kill shadow knights as efficiently as i do solo since to me, they're the hardest mob to kill.

Does that mean i wish for waypoints to be removed? Yes. You wanna know why? Because smoke signal is completely obsolete. No one uses it when in reality, it can be the most useful thing ever. Why not remove way-points and leave that spot for smoke signal? I wish for more immersive type abilities and items, but if we keep little things like way-points combat log, there's simply no point.

In every sieges, smart players use Fun flags, but that's cool since everyone can see it; i can't hate that. I just hate the fact that fun flags don't make the game look serious enough so we can just call them something else and we can replace them with a darker theme.

It's a gameplay issue. If i'm hiding, i don't want to be forced to step out just because of a random ice-storm that completely blew-up my cover. Icestorm don't make my character scream in pain. Icestorm is used to evade, not to scan. It's one or the other. This is why i think it would be better to add some scout type of abilities, not just beacon just to fill up an other missing utility in a immersive way.

I wish for more scout type abilities, you want slows and i don't want slows, but i like your solution. I see more scout abilities as a solution if we heavily nerf hit-sound and combat log.

As for combat log, i don't think a delay would be enough. I think combat log should not even be used at someone's advantage.
I think it should only work when ever somene is arming you or supporting you. It should work on your allies as-well. So if you shoot a random inferno, the combat log should not even write anything. If somebody heals you, combat log takes it. If a player attacks you, combat logs takes note of your aggressor: his name and clan name, damage dealt...

No matter what, i don't want combat log to be used as a whole way to prey on players. It's too easy and it completely eliminates any other tactical way to locate players nor a reason to add more scout type of abilities and because of field AOE's, it's harder to hide our numbers.
  • Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 02:45:06 am by Bloodymurderer

Re: Visualization & sound effect on everything.
Reply #7
Ice storm, like most damage in DF, has a chance of making your character scream out in pain. Even without a combat log, wouldn't it give your position away?

And if we remove combat log and hit sound on aoes, but implement a scouting spell/trap, wouldn't the information remain the same?

You don't seem to have issues with players having the information itself but in the way it is acquired, correct?

If "yes", then it is an immersion debate rather than a gameplay debate.

In our point of view gameplay > realism.
Darkfall's appeal is both to virtual world players but also PvP/"competitive" players. We could try to solve the immersion issues of a combat log, but it would add "complexity" without "depth", which would make for poorer gameplay.

If "no", and it is a gameplay debate, then please keep trying to explain. We're not seeing the issue here.

On our end what we are seing is that we would need to add unintuitive solutions for an unclear problem.

To be clear on terminology. "unintuitive" and "complexity" would be caused by adding edge cases and quirks. Things like hit sounds occuring only in these cases, not in those, and partially on that one when the moons align. Or having combat log only giving personal information in live but not when a hit sound occurs and sometimes when healing friendlies. Imagine if we added two combat logs, one imediate for personal effects, one delayed by 2 minutes with all effects, it is two boxes with weird rules.

It all just adds inconsistency, so it better be worth it and really improve gameplay. ( search google for complexity to depth ratio)
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Visualization & sound effect on everything.
Reply #8
Lol, i thought about hit sound working on direct hits only, but not combat log. If these 2 things don't work with AOE's, it will be good enough. So if you're ok with that, then we're good.

First of all, when you talk about gameplay issue, i wonder what you got in mind. We don't all fight fair in DFO. I know i'm good, but i never fight in a fair manner unless there's no one else online. DFO is gameplay over everything indeed, but unlike many other games, we actually play to crush. We do everything we can to win. It's to a point where cheating, turtling, bind-camping, all of these dirty tricks become part of the gameplay eventually. Every single thing can be used to win. If you remove way-points, it means we're gonna use even more game-play mechanism just to win(scout type abilities).
It's really hard to guess what you got in mind about gameplay since we can win a siege early in the morning and in cases like this, i can hardly call that gameplay.
We also send scouts literally in the enemy's clan just to gather more information from inside. You know the proverb, keep your enemies closer.

You know, sometime, when you remove something, we get more in return.
ATM, Mortal online got 1000 players and it's full of immersive feature so it's wrong to think players don't like immersion. In skyrim, immersive mods are the most popular ATM.
For DFO, in term of immersion, i just want it to be as light as possible. All i want is to make everything become visible for everyone. The enemies can't see your way-points so i want them to use smoke-signal and if you're gonna use a scout-type ability, it better be obvious like beacon. That's all.
Again, i always wish for players to find other ways to gather some informations, but that don't mean i want a field AOE spell made to gather info's in a choke-point since again, that's too easy.
All in all, if you wish to add more scout-type abilities, we can have a player specialized in that.

I also wonder why you're against traps. Would it not be cool? Traps are in many games. Skyrim, dark messiah, battlefield, call of duty and more. Why not? Traps are in about every mmo's i tried. Wow, Ragnarok online(which was my favorite mmo back then because of the combat alone). You want grenades, yet, you don't want traps.

Re: Visualization & sound effect on everything.
Reply #9
It seems like we are having communication issues.

- we like traps, we want to add them.
- we like immersion, but not when it removes choices.
- gameplay is the total ammount of viable choices available to the players.
- we like the scouting mechanic and want it in game under one form or another.
- hit sounds are necessary for sensorial feedback and indirectly helps immersion.
- the information present in a combat log need to be transparent and accessible in PvP games for players to understand and learn from what happenned.

We understand that players will use everything to win, and that the combat log was used for scouting. But we think it is a good thing.

So focus on this question: Why is scouting bad in your opinion?
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Visualization & sound effect on everything.
Reply #10

So focus on this question: Why is scouting bad in your opinion?

To clarify, hit-sound and combat log used as a scouting device is bad for the game in my opinion. I actually wish for more ways to scout, but like i said, in a way that would fit better with DF.

Combat-log and hit-sound simply breaks some potential ways to hide or evade, especially as a group when sometime, the best tactic is to hide our number and to come-out from a choke point simultaneously. In other words, it's too easy to blow up a cover.

Destroyers only got access to needles for AOE's, but this spell for a heavy destroyer takes a long time to cast and it's not as good as a field AOE. So in that regard, hybrids got the advantage. Hybrids or mages are the best scouts in the game. We can easily balance that if we make it so hit-detection and combat log only work with direct-hits.
In my opinion, archers should be the best scouts in the game, definitely not the mages; they're already good with AOE's.
If i recall, there was a title named BullEyes that allowed archers to look further away or maybe, it was just a general skill.

When you're chasing a destroyer around tree's, the best thing you can do is shooting a field aoe on the left side of the tree and while you sprint on the opposite side, as soon as you hear hit-sounds, you can tell where the destroyer is at exactly so it's an easy way to defeat them at their game. If we're low on stats and we must run around tree's, the destroyer can't do the same thing as us. So you can see how unfair it is.

and like i said earlier, sometime, we get more in return when we remove some stuff. If you remove way-points, believe me when i say that players will finally use smoke-signals and maybe even a camp fire. So in a way, it leaves room for more creativity with the risk of getting exposed by the enemies. DFO is a sandbox afterall and creativity reigns supreme in this time of game.

Finally, this is a earlier response. I don't think players scream in pain when they get hit by AOE's. I'm saying that while looking at several DFO pvp videos with the in-game sound. So like i said, i believe that AOE's did not even make players scream in pain.
Direct hit do make them scream tho.

You can analyses this video and see for you yourself.

  • Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 06:51:42 pm by Bloodymurderer

Re: Visualization & sound effect on everything.
Reply #11
We've discussed this internally.
We understand that it is an aspect of the game that can be improved.

We do not see it as a dramatic issue, so it will be medium priority, but we have a few steps of changes that we believe will make scouting more interesting.

These changes will come late InDev, as early on we need the combat log for players to help us out in balancing.

Step 1:
- combat log is delayed to not serve as mid fight scouting.
- only direct hits trigger a hit sound.
- aoes trigger pain cries.
Step 2:
- we add "wards", traps that trigger a warning when players pass near them.
- we add "seeking crystals", grenades accessible to all players and that zap nearby entities for a limited duration.
- we add a scout / spy title that does not trigger holdings system messages or these new objects.
Step 3:
- we add more graphical/audio triggers for players impacted by effects to compensate for the lack of immediate combat log.
- we try to make those effects satisfying as sensorial feedback.

These are the best compromise we can reach so that players still get feedback in combat, can parse combat logs to improve their strategies after a fight and can still scout mid fight in an interesting way that adds to the economy.
The third step is the most important as players in a PvP game need to know what is going on, whether it is by text or by easy to see/hear animations, it needs to be live.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.