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Topic: shrink the game world (Read 2507 times) previous topic - next topic

shrink the game world
Hey guys. So I played dnd a while back for a bit then dropped off cuz game didnt feel alive enough. Waited for ROA. Played that on release, was fun, but had lots of issues. Then started feeling dead and stopped. Chances are when DnD finally comes out, its going to die out also. Theres a related problem.

The world is WAAAY too big. Like really. Giant land mass. Several big islands.

No fast travel. Local banking.

Either people are all going to hotspot in one place so the game around there feels alive (making all the extra land pointless), or people are going to spread out and game is going to feel ultra dead, and people are going to start quitting. Making it more dead. Rip game.

I've played mortal online for a long time and even tho its pop has dropped a ton many times and the pop is never really great it can still feel alive due to certain towns that are always hotspots and a smaller world in general.

Smaller world makes a lower pop feel bigger. This game needs a very high pop to feel alive. In the current age of gaming, most people dont want a game like df. Having the required pop to make the game feel alive is going to be really hard.

Therefore, just shrink the world by a descent amount. Lets be real, with local banking all the giant world does is spread everyone out.

I'm not going to say where to remove, thats up to the devs. Obviously, some mobs and stuff would need to be changed. Cairn is a cool place. The other islands are cool. But with a giant mainland, and a ton of islands, and no fast travel, its just not really going to work. Game will be better off with less area.

My 2 cents as someone who wants a DF game to actually succeed so I can have fun playing it.

Re: shrink the game world
Reply #1
that's the idea of restricted fast travel and local banking. the people around you make your content - everyone doesn't need to travel to the 1 or 2 hotspots in the world, so in theory the world should feel more populated and properly spread out.

Re: shrink the game world
Reply #2
Fast travel = mounts & ships
Instant travels = runestones, portals, etc

ND is being designed with localized resources, local banking and fast travel that comes with a cost (risk vs time saved), but NO instant travel.
Instant travel makes you avoid travel which in turn makes it less possible for other players to find you and generate content.

I do not think world needs to be smaller, especially once local banking gets enabled and runestones disabled.
Wyverex Erisian, SG of Scrubs


Still a member of SaltyBitches™ Club

Re: shrink the game world
Reply #3
Fast travel = mounts & ships
As long as it's faster to just begone in water than travel on a ship it is hard to accept ships in fast travel category. Begonning on land is a little bit more tricky. Not sure about this but if begonning > mounts on land too, than we can safelly say that DnD is localized, world is huge, instant travel removed and there are no fast travel options.
  • Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 11:10:40 am by wildNothing

Re: shrink the game world
Reply #4
If anything, the world needs to be larger. Shrinking it is the exact wrong direction. Conquered players need a place to be able to run to to get away from conquering players, lest they just say f it and give up.
  • Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 05:58:02 pm by Rokaroo

Re: shrink the game world
Reply #5
We tried the smaller arena style version in DFUW and it didn't help at all. For the game to have any chance of surviving, it has to become more than a PVP gankfest. Uber has good ideas to help that shift to happen.

Re: shrink the game world
Reply #6
We will not reduce the size of the world. If anything, we worry that it may be too small.

To explain:
- Local banking relies on a barrier of entry to goods acquisition for its benefits to come into play.
The further something feels, the more you'll be willing to pay for it, the more there will be people wanting to bring it to you, the more you'll find it available, the more convenient the game will be.
A world too small, with instant travels, or fast travels that are too fast, prevents this virtuous circle.

- Instant travels prevent openworld content.
Darkfall's content and feeling of being alive depends on how many people you interact with or cross path with. When people are in a loading screen instead of in the world, they are not only evading any form of interactions, they are also not there to fill up the world.

- A global game harms new or casual players.
When the top dogs of any fields can be anywhere any time, there is little room for players that don't have the time to be.
In the conquest field, traveling everywhere allows stronger groups to impact politics all over the map and bully/prevent the fun of all.
In the PvE field, if you can technically farm everywhere, there is no room to sell local content. It lowers the value of resources across the board.
In the crafting field, it prevents smaller or starting out crafters from finding customers if the top crafters of a profession can be selling everywhere of have customers going to them from anywhere.
In the PvP field, gankers cannot harm everywhere at once, they have to be at one location, and once they have killed, they have to physically move back to a friendly bank. This makes them predictable for "defenders" to converge on them, and/or simply reduces their numbers to only those willing to kill enough to take the time to travel.

- Virtual worlds depend on their feeling of scale.
A lot of the immersion factor, or simply the feeling of an MMORPG, is in the physicality of its world. Be it fluff interactions like sitting on a park bench, reading books in a forgotten library or actually feeling that the world is something physical to traverse.
When travels are an adventure rather than an afterthought, players become more attached to the world and will create memories.
That time you escaped or fought back a random attack on your travels is a better memory than that 20th time you ported from one place to another.


In conclusion:
Shrinking the world, be it directly or indirectly, is the last thing we should do.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: shrink the game world
Reply #7
That was such a good response that I'll just accept it and wait and see what happens. And I like the DnD dev's so I'll just trust that you guys know what you are doing.

Re: shrink the game world
Reply #8
We will not reduce the size of the world. If anything, we worry that it may be too small.

To explain:
- Local banking relies on a barrier of entry to goods acquisition for its benefits to come into play.
The further something feels, the more you'll be willing to pay for it, the more there will be people wanting to bring it to you, the more you'll find it available, the more convenient the game will be.
A world too small, with instant travels, or fast travels that are too fast, prevents this virtuous circle.

- Instant travels prevent openworld content.
Darkfall's content and feeling of being alive depends on how many people you interact with or cross path with. When people are in a loading screen instead of in the world, they are not only evading any form of interactions, they are also not there to fill up the world.

- A global game harms new or casual players.
When the top dogs of any fields can be anywhere any time, there is little room for players that don't have the time to be.
In the conquest field, traveling everywhere allows stronger groups to impact politics all over the map and bully/prevent the fun of all.
In the PvE field, if you can technically farm everywhere, there is no room to sell local content. It lowers the value of resources across the board.
In the crafting field, it prevents smaller or starting out crafters from finding customers if the top crafters of a profession can be selling everywhere of have customers going to them from anywhere.
In the PvP field, gankers cannot harm everywhere at once, they have to be at one location, and once they have killed, they have to physically move back to a friendly bank. This makes them predictable for "defenders" to converge on them, and/or simply reduces their numbers to only those willing to kill enough to take the time to travel.

- Virtual worlds depend on their feeling of scale.
A lot of the immersion factor, or simply the feeling of an MMORPG, is in the physicality of its world. Be it fluff interactions like sitting on a park bench, reading books in a forgotten library or actually feeling that the world is something physical to traverse.
When travels are an adventure rather than an afterthought, players become more attached to the world and will create memories.
That time you escaped or fought back a random attack on your travels is a better memory than that 20th time you ported from one place to another.


In conclusion:
Shrinking the world, be it directly or indirectly, is the last thing we should do.

That was not the idea when DF was supposed to attract 10k players. Imagine new dawn today with 10k. Ppl would still get bullied everywhere. The idea here is to shrink the world to make it seem like the pop is booming as if it had 10k players in a enormous world.

Nobody wants to play a game that feels empty. If a noob has to run for hours without finding a single soul, he will automatically think the game is dead. How is that a good thing?

Coming from wow, i've always felt like the pop was never big enough since it has always been natural for me to be surrounded by a lot of players everywhere i go. In DF, ppl think the pop is booming when they raid a city with only 10 ppl online. They still think the game is booming when they find those same 10 players in a different area of the game like in a random VCP.

  • gosti
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: shrink the game world
Reply #9
When you find the same ppl for 10th time you know it isnt booming.

Re: shrink the game world
Reply #10
But if you keep finding people, even if the same 10 ones, then at least one component of game design was good.
Wyverex Erisian, SG of Scrubs


Still a member of SaltyBitches™ Club

Re: shrink the game world
Reply #11
You do not attract or retain players by designing for failure. A smaller world would only lead to a smaller population.
As we've said: local banking relies on a large world to function. A working economy relies on local banking. And convenient gameplay relies on a working economy.
It is crucial for the world to be large enough for a large enough price differential to exist.

It is also a matter of immersion and tension.
If you keep on finding monsters or players every 10 meters, there isn't much of a wilderness or build up to openworld PvP.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: shrink the game world
Reply #12
You do not attract or retain players by designing for failure. A smaller world would only lead to a smaller population.
As we've said: local banking relies on a large world to function. A working economy relies on local banking. And convenient gameplay relies on a working economy.
It is crucial for the world to be large enough for a large enough price differential to exist.

It is also a matter of immersion and tension.
If you keep on finding monsters or players every 10 meters, there isn't much of a wilderness or build up to openworld PvP.

I understand what your saying and it makes sense. But, it can go both ways.

You can plan to succeed and possibly have a massive player base capable of filling up the giant world.

Or the world could be smaller to better fit the population the game will most likely have. Sadly at the end of the day, this is darkfall. A open pvp mmo, which honestly is a failing genre of game. To make it worse darkfall itself has a bad history of succeeding (but there can always be a first sucess). It's super old. All my friends hate the pvp feel. Most people say it looks too bad. Etc.

I'd rather plan for a smaller playerbase and have the game feel alive with it then have a gigantic world with way too many holdings and spots to fight over so the player base is spread and the game feels dead even with a descent player base.

Now obviously theres a right balance. I don't mean shrink the world into the size of cairn. But right now with local banking and no fast travel (which I think are good overall) it can take a looooong time to get anywhere. It wont be worth having any interaction between guilds on different sides of the world. No conflict, alliances or anything. If you can have different pvp guilds that dont even come close to interacting with each other, the world is virtually shrinking the player base to its players. Both could be large pvp clans wanting something to fight over, but they cant find anything. But if the world was smaller and those clans happened to be semi close to each other, they could be fighting over each others stuff.

And honestly even with like a shrunken world just the size of the mainland you would need a really big player base to have nubs and solo players not be able to go off and farm. The majority of players will most likely end up hotspotting it up around the middle of the map anyway. Cuz it will haev the most trade and pvp. Generally this is how local banking goes in mmo's that dont have massive player bases.

Really the main reason people get ganked constantly when trying to farm is that they picked a dumb spot. Going to that obvious fast gold farm spot is generally an easy way to get ganked. Going to a less good and less obvious spot goes a long way. but I'd rather get ganked trying to go off to an obscure spot to farm then never get jumped cuz its a giant world with 300 players online and 200 of them are sitting in their holdings dueling cuz no action outside.

--End massive essay lol
  • Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 05:58:30 pm by bobthecat

Re: shrink the game world
Reply #13
You do not attract or retain players by designing for failure. A smaller world would only lead to a smaller population.
As we've said: local banking relies on a large world to function. A working economy relies on local banking. And convenient gameplay relies on a working economy.
It is crucial for the world to be large enough for a large enough price differential to exist.

It is also a matter of immersion and tension.
If you keep on finding monsters or players every 10 meters, there isn't much of a wilderness or build up to openworld PvP.

I understand what your saying and it makes sense. But, it can go both ways.

You can plan to succeed and possibly have a massive player base capable of filling up the giant world.

Or the world could be smaller to better fit the population the game will most likely have. Sadly at the end of the day, this is darkfall. A open pvp mmo, which honestly is a failing genre of game. To make it worse darkfall itself has a bad history of succeeding (but there can always be a first sucess). It's super old. All my friends hate the pvp feel. Most people say it looks too bad. Etc.

I'd rather plan for a smaller playerbase and have the game feel alive with it then have a gigantic world with way too many holdings and spots to fight over so the player base is spread and the game feels dead even with a descent player base.

Now obviously theres a right balance. I don't mean shrink the world into the size of cairn. But right now with local banking and no fast travel (which I think are good overall) it can take a looooong time to get anywhere. It wont be worth having any interaction between guilds on different sides of the world. No conflict, alliances or anything. If you can have different pvp guilds that dont even come close to interacting with each other, the world is virtually shrinking the player base to its players. Both could be large pvp clans wanting something to fight over, but they cant find anything. But if the world was smaller and those clans happened to be semi close to each other, they could be fighting over each others stuff.

And honestly even with like a shrunken world just the size of the mainland you would need a really big player base to have nubs and solo players not be able to go off and farm. The majority of players will most likely end up hotspotting it up around the middle of the map anyway. Cuz it will haev the most trade and pvp. Generally this is how local banking goes in mmo's that dont have massive player bases.

Really the main reason people get ganked constantly when trying to farm is that they picked a dumb spot. Going to that obvious fast gold farm spot is generally an easy way to get ganked. Going to a less good and less obvious spot goes a long way. but I'd rather get ganked trying to go off to an obscure spot to farm then never get jumped cuz its a giant world with 300 players online and 200 of them are sitting in their holdings dueling cuz no action outside.

--End massive essay lol

The thing is local banking scales better since there will always be border conflict due to locality, so one would never need to travel the world looking for that place people are at, since there will always been conflict everywhere competing empires meet. Unlike a global world where everyone can be anywhere with scattered holdings everywhere but only 1-2 populated, the local world will be compact empires bumping heads with others making pvp much easier to find.

Also the economy scales better so in a low pop world an empire might be all of ruby and ha kali where the mats from ruby are funneled to ha kali and then sold or trade for mats from other parts of the world, so no one would need to go to ruby to farm and the owning clan would have little issue moving goods through their own territory.

All in all local banking makes a big world in to smaller regions and localities removing the need for everyone to go everywhere and for anyone to have to go looking everywhere for someone, so it actually plays much better with a smaller pop than a global world does. You have to stop thinking in old DF terms because they don't make sense and just confuse how things will work, why would I need to go to ruby to farm kamsets when I know I can trade rarer mats not found on ruby for the taint closer to home or travel around the world looking for a populated city when I know on eah side of me is another clans territory and they can be found in it.

Its counter intuitive in some ways, but local banking makes a lot of the old map issues disappear and in general makes mat acquisition and pvp locating far easier and less time consuming.

Re: shrink the game world
Reply #14
this game new sandbox content more than anything before release.
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