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Topic: Server Farm Event - This Wednesday 23/11 (Read 5497 times) previous topic - next topic

  • Nuyur
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Re: Server Farm Event - This Wednesday 23/11
Reply #135
math

Sure, and you get only 160% of the loot, compared to 200% if both of you farmed seperately.
So yes, your skill gains are faster...(remember getting mana is a thing, so you'd actually take longer on both sides...making the difference smaller). Also, a lvl 1 monster hitting me doesnt do nearly as much as a lvl 2. Even magic still scales up.
So when getting hit, i need to actually consider healing.

Plenty of examples of people getting low and needing team heals...
Look at the orc trying to destroy a strongbox. If it wasnt for the team heals he would have died by the golem alone (he still does when trying to run away?).
The monsters become a lot more daunting.
Surely, with how OP scaling is according to you... There'd be a group size that could farm dark dragons and earn loads?
Ah..the extra dragon spawning fuck you up.
Guess what 6 extra theyril golems will do once their cast speed is also increased.
Guess why most monsters have AoE attacks ontop of single target.
Toxic rain from theyril golem is going to hit multiple people...
7 toxic rains from 7 golems wrecking on your party...and with how "little" damage the dot does normally.
Scaling does apply to this, even if the normal bolts do hit damage cap "easy".

Id comment on the rest...but i just cba.
If you wanna hate on spawn scaling go ahead.
But this event was done to help other players out.
Not to earn theyril ores...and not to help giants progress their chars.

Because scaling the spawn up to 6 would have let them kill them without any downtime, increasing the theyril for each individual.
And if they wanted to progress their char's they wouldnt still be shooting air magic. Theyve been playing pretty hardcore considering its indev. Im fairly confident most of them just need melee gains at this point.

ps
Ive tried scaled farming, i prefer solo/duo. Its more focussed gains, requires less attention and allows for more money earned. Bonus points for actually handing in the neithal/leenspar keys for meditation points...Because i cant/wont spend 4+hours a day in game.
  • Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 05:11:01 pm by Nuyur

  • mrW
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Re: Server Farm Event - This Wednesday 23/11
Reply #136
You compare again the loot of one mob, ignore the time it takes. Also good luck controlling 2 spawns of Theoryl at the same time while both are solo. i really expected better comparison from you (at least something realistic).

You also compare broken mobs. FYI dark dragons aren't worth the effort farming since end of first month of inDev. Scaling is like putting it under microscope so you can see how broken they are. I bet there are many more spawns like that.

Otherwise, my feedback was "too easy for too much loot", the remaining of your post agrees it's too easy, so I don't really understand what is the point you are trying to make?

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"Our title system is an expansion of the titles in the same spirit than the destroyer title. These will NOT be classes and will be completely optional."

  • mrW
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Re: Server Farm Event - This Wednesday 23/11
Reply #137
Farm a warhulk in 1 hour lol. Back under the bridge alright??

Hush hush

You probably forgot about which clans dominated the game on an active server and the numbers they had? You are also telling that 200 theiryl ingots are worth less than a warhulk?

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"Our title system is an expansion of the titles in the same spirit than the destroyer title. These will NOT be classes and will be completely optional."

  • Nuyur
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Re: Server Farm Event - This Wednesday 23/11
Reply #138
You compare again the loot of one mob, ignore the time it takes. Also good luck controlling 2 spawns of Theoryl at the same time while both are solo. i really expected better comparison from you (at least something realistic).

Well, with 2 people it would still be 1 theyril golem.
So even if you killed it slightly faster, it would still not compare to the income if you had solod it (in a slightly longer time).

And since you only consider it truely broken for higher end spawns, this will always be the case.
Anything single monster you kill with up to 3 people, stays a single monster.
Meaning that, even though you do kill it quicker...you dont actually get to kill any more than just the one.
Once you hit 4 people, you get to fight another monster...But at that point, the loot isnt even close to what 4 individual kills would drop.
160% on 2 people, 220% for 3 people, 280% for 4 people, ect.
Which means that with 4 people, you get to kill 2 golems for a total 560% of the standard solo drop.
You will need to kill 2 ofcourse, which takes you longer than killing 1 solo.
And at that point, you have to split it 4 ways...which leaves you with 140% earned.
But this is killing WAY more health, as the health scales quite steaply aswell.

So, the only step worth considering as time saving is duo....(both skill and money earned).
Anything above, means you will earn less, while in return getting slightly more skill ups.
And you get to earn just a specific resource, instead of roaming around over several spawns because theres a respawn timer.

Id note that you probably kill 2 theyril golems before the respawn is up, so you'd have to scale it up to a minimum of level 6.
Which results in 400% loot, on 3 theyril golems for 6 people.
Which means you get 69,666....7% loot on each golem kill per person.
You have to deal with a pretty massive hp increase...and the additional 2 theyril golems shooting at you (at least untill you have the spawn under control?)

I dont know how you do math...but 70% of the loot, because 5 other people are there with me isnt going to speed up the rate of killing enough to compensate for that. Not even if all 5 others are doing consistant back hits...
Because it has increased hp aswell (so 40% more damage doesnt compensate the -30% loot).
And there's still 2 golems dealing damage.



You also compare broken mobs. FYI dark dragons aren't worth the effort farming since end of first month of inDev. Scaling is like putting it under microscope so you can see how broken they are. I bet there are many more spawns like that.

So even though spawnscaling is broken as shit, according to you, its not broken enough to farm dark dragons.

Otherwise, my feedback was "too easy for too much loot", the remaining of your post agrees it's too easy, so I don't really understand what is the point you are trying to make?

Its not too easy, im saying that the loot is actually less. And that even though you arent likely to get wiped from the leveled up monsters....its also not nearly as valuable compared to keeping it a smaller scale.
For rare ore golems specifically, id imagine you want to keep them at JUST the level that allows you to fight them (nearly) consistantly.
Over scaling it up as high as you can, because each person added cuts into every persons earning.

The only arguement in this whole thing you brought up is that clans can now farm a large ammount of ores, with a grouped effort.
Which on an individual level is still not worth quite as much as trying to keep it as low as possible.
But from a clan point of view, its a great way to have members contribute some of their time without having to be forced to donate their hard earned rare ores as before.

You might get close to making a warhulk in an hour, if you have enough members working together.
But thats a lot of people working together for a common goal. Shouldnt they be able to accomplish things like this...
Instead of camping the rare ore golem spawns for hours on end, to kill it on respawn in the hopes of earning enough rare ores that they maybe one day can build something?

Remember, again, this isnt about the current population...
Its about when...lets say...3k players are online concurrently in prime time (which ever timezone really).
You dont want to be stuck with 10 theyril ore per spawn per hour....because nobody is ever going to be able to afford to use anything of high rank...unless its a siege...mob dropped...or they are filthy rich (which...isnt likely).

  • mrW
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Re: Server Farm Event - This Wednesday 23/11
Reply #139
And since you only consider it truely broken for higher end spawns, this will always be the case.
Anything single monster you kill with up to 3 people, stays a single monster.
Meaning that, even though you do kill it quicker...you dont actually get to kill any more than just the one.
I bolded the parts which show how spawn scaling discourages to farm in solo/duo or as you pointed out yourself even as 3 too.

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Once you hit 4 people, you get to fight another monster...But at that point, the loot isnt even close to what 4 individual kills would drop.
4 Individual Kills would take a lot longer more time. Compare how long it does take you to kill 4 individual kills with respawn time included and then go at compare how many mobs you can kill in the same time and how much loot you can get. Then we will have an accurate representation.

If you believe you will be able to hold spawn for long, not to mention cycle 2 spawns next to each other that are worth doing it, then I think you'lll be surprised at release.

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160% on 2 people, 220% for 3 people, 280% for 4 people, ect.
Which means that with 4 people, you get to kill 2 golems for a total 560% of the standard solo drop.
You will need to kill 2 ofcourse, which takes you longer than killing 1 solo.
And at that point, you have to split it 4 ways...which leaves you with 140% earned.
I bolded the part I think is broken.

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But this is killing WAY more health, as the health scales quite steaply aswell.
Yes, because at the moment the only way to scale mobs up besides damage (which reaches a cap anyway) was to make them have more HP. Farming as solo\duo vs farming as group have few essential differences:
- Farming as Solo\Duo is always more dangerous thing to do than to farm in a group of 6+. It was so in DFO and it will be even more of the case here due to this change.
- With 10+ people you have you can just have scouts and no one will ever be able to surprise you.

Farming as a group is always a lot more convenient (spawn scaling aside), and most people here agreed on it when discussing it pre-patch.

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And you get to earn just a specific resource, instead of roaming around over several spawns because theres a respawn timer.
Mobs drop multiple resources, not just one. Otherwise, roaming around isn't really something better than staying and farming in one spot most of the time. Especially if you are solo.


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You have to deal with a pretty massive hp increase...and the additional 2 theyril golems shooting at you (at least untill you have the spawn under control?)
You only need to handle half golem per person shooting at you. The damage they do caps and it does not scale up properly. With 8+ people it was more in terms of 1 golem per 8-10 people?

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So even though spawnscaling is broken as shit, according to you, its not broken enough to farm dark dragons.
Not sure what you are getting at here? If mobs are not worth farming, because they take a lot more effort to kill than other mobs do not drop any loot that you can't get otherwise, then it does not matter how many times you scale it, it's still not going to be worth it.


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Otherwise, my feedback was "too easy for too much loot", the remaining of your post agrees it's too easy, so I don't really understand what is the point you are trying to make?
Its not too easy, im saying that the loot is actually less. And that even though you arent likely to get wiped from the leveled up monsters....its also not nearly as valuable compared to keeping it a smaller scale.
No one is asking to keep it for small scale, merely add diminishing returns to loot, so that +60% becomes less and less after certain amount of people leave the spawn. For most spawns I'd say 5-6 is more than enough. Otherwise, there can be some of the spawns on the map that are unlimited, or targeted for bigger groups. So there is a variety for everyone and groups have to fight over them. What it is now, is just unlimited faucets, where you can bring your zerg to any PvE spawn and farm uncontested, because who cares, you will eventually get so much you're gonna sell it anyway.

Alternatively, add cooldown or respawn rate, force the same groups to move spawns. Or give same no-cooldown to everyone, so your farming efficiency defines how much you get loot.

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For rare ore golems specifically, id imagine you want to keep them at JUST the level that allows you to fight them (nearly) consistantly.
Over scaling it up as high as you can, because each person added cuts into every persons earning.
I am not sure what you imagine, but at the server event I was running around with my blackbolt in a robe and didn't even care about the golems at all. Just mindlessly chasing the golem and hitting it to the back. If in any rare case  one would start to hit me, I would just ignore it unless I'm getting 20-30% and then you can just parry up and get heals. That happened rarely and most of the time he just switches to different target anyway. There are LESS golems to manage per person and the damage increase does not substitute for that.

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The only arguement in this whole thing you brought up is that clans can now farm a large ammount of ores, with a grouped effort.
Which on an individual level is still not worth quite as much as trying to keep it as low as possible.
But from a clan point of view, its a great way to have members contribute some of their time without having to be forced to donate their hard earned rare ores as before.
I'm only looking at what comes in from the spawns and with what effort. It it stays in personal banks or in clan vault does not change anything.

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You might get close to making a warhulk in an hour, if you have enough members working together.
But thats a lot of people working together for a common goal. Shouldnt they be able to accomplish things like this...
Well that's the real question here. I think warhulks shouldn't be farmed in one hour.


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Remember, again, this isnt about the current population...
Its about when...lets say...3k players are online concurrently in prime time (which ever timezone really).
You dont want to be stuck with 10 theyril ore per spawn per hour....because nobody is ever going to be able to afford to use anything of high rank...unless its a siege...mob dropped...or they are filthy rich (which...isnt likely).
I'm only thinking regarding this with healthy pop in mind. There will be no place for any solo/duo/trio in any of the decent spawns. All good spawns will be permacamped by zergs. Because any good solo spawn = any good zerg PvE spawn. At least now you could fight for the spawns, even if you were group of 2 or 5 against a big clan, because you would rarely see them farming with more due to it being total waste of time. Now it went from one extreme to another.
  • Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 11:42:13 pm by mrw

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"Our title system is an expansion of the titles in the same spirit than the destroyer title. These will NOT be classes and will be completely optional."

  • mrW
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Re: Server Farm Event - This Wednesday 23/11
Reply #140
Assuming scaling is flat 50% (it does not matter if the number is right or not), does scaling work:
a) (loot + 50% * ExtraPlayers) i.e. 1 guy - 100% loot; 2 people - 150%; 3people 200% ?
b)  (loot * 0.5 * ExtraPlayers) i.e. 1 guy - 100% loot; 2 people - 150%; 3 people 225% ?

@Ub3rgames  is it a) or b)?
  • Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 11:52:00 pm by mrw

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"Our title system is an expansion of the titles in the same spirit than the destroyer title. These will NOT be classes and will be completely optional."

  • nubnax
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Re: Server Farm Event - This Wednesday 23/11
Reply #141
mrw it is not that simple every spawn has it's own loot scaling
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  • Nuyur
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Re: Server Farm Event - This Wednesday 23/11
Reply #142
ok (i just cba)

Re: Server Farm Event - This Wednesday 23/11
Reply #143
The scaling adds XX% of the base loot per player.
So for a single number: base_loot + (base_loot x loot_modifier_percent / 100) x scaling_level
 The loot_modifier_percent is never above 50%, and in most cases, it is bellow. The output of a spawn is generally more impacted by the percent of increase in size and/or respawn rate.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Server Farm Event - This Wednesday 23/11
Reply #144
The output of a spawn is generally more impacted by the percent of increase in size and/or respawn rate.

THIS. A lot of spawns are still useless unless you hit that sweet spot with infinite respawns. Thats why exp gains are way faster than usual, you don't have to move, you shoot non stop for however long you can handle it.

Re: Server Farm Event - This Wednesday 23/11
Reply #145
I think if people just went out and farmed mobs in varied size groups between 6-11 you will find out sweet spots for each spawn, not being funny but all people talking in this thread probably haven't even tested out more than 1 spawn.

Nothing wrong with more mats coming into the game more efficiently for rewarding group effort.. how many Warhulks were spawned and lost in DF1? How many people even seen a Manowar or a Vileforge?

There's a lot of end game content to be seen and used this time around not hidden behind extreme mat costs.

You guys honestly need to wipe your memory of DF1 and stop comparing this game to it, it's going to be a completely different game with its own style of economy, let ub3r do their thing, in the mean time get online and test some shit out, games fun as fuck.

  • Nuyur
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Re: Server Farm Event - This Wednesday 23/11
Reply #146
I dont think the lack of large ships was due to cost increase...but simply because they didnt provide a real advantage over using a smaller one.
No sense in having 30+ cannons, if your entire crew is just 15 people for example.

And the warhulks are (still) horrible to drive + aim in, even the funhulks are hard to do that with...and you have a line showing where the shot is going...it has 0 drop off and its a lot smaller + more manueverable + faster response times.

Ofcourse in both cases the cost made clan leaders more carefull with them, but they werent the best of tools to use.
And they still arent. Even if you could afford to lose a warhulk for free every 2 hours (with watchtower taxes).
You'd still not want to drive one towards your enemy holding...you'd maybe spawn it once you get close...
But as soon as fighting starts, you probably want to get out of it to actually contribute...because shooting a warhulk isnt doing very much.
Even the vileforge with the flame thrower side cannons is a too easy target to focus to make real use of, outside of chokepoint situations.

They arent quite as usefull, even if the cost (in time invested) is reduced

Re: Server Farm Event - This Wednesday 23/11
Reply #147
I suggest going and reading their roadmap for warhulks Nuyur :)

  • Nuyur
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Re: Server Farm Event - This Wednesday 23/11
Reply #148
I have read that, but currently the warhulks still handle like shit.
Its actually quite similar to how ships are fairly inaccurate to control...except ships are easily 4x larger, which makes it feel less awkward.

Thats again ignoring the whole aiming part of using these "tanks".
You basicly need a spotter for scarab warhulks, because you might be unlucky and look backwards to hit just the right angle.

Shooting straight forward (up down a bit i guess) you can probably jump off and back on again, to align your camera view.
But thats not practical in combat, being only able to shoot in a straight line AFTER remounting it.
And you can forget about ever hitting (and following) a moving target.

Its w/e, untill warhulks can be properly controlled it doesnt matter if they cost 5 gold or 500k gold...
You still wouldnt take one out unless you absolutely had to. Because it contributes nothing in a fight.
And if you intend to do building damage, its used as a cheaper (more durable) alternative to battlespikes and cannons.
Which again, is a necessity...not because its actually convinient or practical to use them.

  • Fnights
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Re: Server Farm Event - This Wednesday 23/11
Reply #149
Its w/e, untill warhulks can be properly controlled it doesnt matter if they cost 5 gold or 500k gold...
You still wouldnt take one out unless you absolutely had to. Because it contributes nothing in a fight.
And if you intend to do building damage, its used as a cheaper (more durable) alternative to battlespikes and cannons.
Which again, is a necessity...not because its actually convinient or practical to use them.

You will be surprised that warhulks will be the new caravan system along with some boats and so their building price heavily reduced. So they will back to be usefull and cheap not only as a siege weapon but as means of transport.
  • Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 08:59:36 am by Fnights
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