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Topic: Titles and their effectiveness. (Read 1330 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Titles and their effectiveness.
Reply #15
You know, there is no need to call people no lifers macroers or tell them to go see elsewhere whenever they have a different opinion.
Please refrain.

That said, this system is designed for players of both extremes to find what they love.
Be it using 50+ spells or just focusing on melee+archery.

The added bonus of a breadth of viable choices is also an overall increase in skill ceiling as the meta game is more fluid and creates more diverse situations to react to.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Titles and their effectiveness.
Reply #16
We do not plan to go down a road where spells are too powerful and become mandatory in a group. We're also trying to add non magic utilities so that all type of utilities are present in groups even without mages.
The end goal being that any combination of characters and titles are viable and able to handle all situations, just in different ways.

However at some point we need to have incentives to specialize.
An opportunity cost for some aspects of a character are fine as long as we don't allow obvious "best" or "mandatory" choices.

I'm afraid of that. I like all the changes and plans from what i'm reading on the front pages, but i like the fact that warriors and archers rely solely on white damage. Sure, the warrior got whirlwind and power-attack, but these are barely more powerful than normal attacks. Speaking of powerattack, it takes skills to use it so you can't just spam it. I wish whirlwind took a minimum of skill and concentration as-well to use since it was too easy honestly, but then again, it's just 1 hit so never too bad.

I fear that giving archers and warriors too much utilities will break the reason to be a destroyer. Being a destroyer will become obsolete against pure archers or warriors.

So no matter what, this game should not look and play like a class system. Warriors should rely on white hits. Archers rely on white hits. Mages need staff and they're the one with utilities, AOE's, elemental damage, buffs, debuffs and all of that. If you wish to use these things like Utilities as a warriors or archer, you must be willing to take the risk of getting your world rocked by a destroyer who pray on staff users.

Let's not change combat too much pls. We can add 100 titles, but pls, warriors and archers don't need more abilities unless we take our time to think about our picks carefully. For example, Back Stab with daggers only will obviously not be spammable since it will only be useful while wielding a dagger when you're very very closed to the back of your opponent.
We only need things like that. We want to avoid the DF UW situation where warriors and archers do nothing, but spamming abilities as soon as they go off cooldown.

In the end, if an archer warrior wish to bunny hop, he must pick a staff. If he wish to CC his opponent, he must pick a staff and cast wof. If he wish to debuff them, he must pick a staff and cast slow, slash weakness or piercing weakness. We already got everything we need for everyone.
If you wish to avoid magic as much as possible, understand that destroyers need a chance to win as-well and just make a title that will allow 1 to rely a lot more on white melee/range attacks while being only allowed to cast lesser magic for the transfers.

On a final note, we can just use or modify a bit what the warriors already got that were rarely used like Knock-back and Seize. With titles, you can enhance these abilities or add new effects to these.
For archery title, you can enhance the knock-back effect on arrows. Remember that arrows also make your opponent knockback so enhance that shit along with the damage.
Not enough CC? Utility? Then don't feel ashame to use a staff. DFO was good by accident so let's now pretend that magic is supposed to be something natural for everyone. After all, it's false that everyone being a mage is what ruined the game.

Afterall, we had a great encumbrance system.
  • Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 09:31:46 am by Bloodymurderer

Re: Titles and their effectiveness.
Reply #17
This post is dedicated to explain why a group on DFO had to rely so much on hybrids and the reason a group full of destroyers could not win.

Point 1: Hybrids had all the elemental buff others so you need them to allow your group to receive the best buffs in the game. Fact is, buff others were OP. With these, it was possible to attack ridiculously fast for example. The self buff Impetus was nothing vs Buff other Haste.
So no matter what, if we don't adjust buff others, every group will always be too reliable on those who got access to all buff-others.

Point 2: Hybrids had access to every single bunny-hop initiation-abilities: begone, shrapnel and stormblast(air magic). OR even more like fire-balling or magma-bombing yourself just to bunny hop. This mean a full group of destroyer can never out-run a full group of hybrids.

Point 3: Hybrids got access to all debuffs and they got access to some of the best debuffs that can render a destroyer to nothing. Slow, slash/piercing weakness and more.

As for heals, we had no issue on that. Everyone had access to heals. A destroyer can chose to go as low as needed in term of encumbrance just to support better. As a bonus, his archery damage is naturally better that way.

These imbalanced problems are easy to fix tho. Ubergames, you already said that you were going to change how bunny hop works.
-That means stormblast won't be necessary to move fast.
-Other than that, we can just make debuffs become blockable and we can reduce their duration since they all lasted way too long. At the same time, some potions will still help, but destroyers still shouldn't be forced to be so reliable on them.
-As for buff others, we can reduce their duration and effectiveness. They were way too OP and we had to depend on them just to stand a chance in a group-fight.

After this is done, a full group of competent destroyers should be able to win on their own.

  • Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 09:50:24 am by Bloodymurderer

Re: Titles and their effectiveness.
Reply #18
We understand your concerns.
We agree that white damage and a more straightforward gameplay is desirable as a non mage and that some things should be unique on the mage, hybrid or warrior.

In a way we want warriors to have a bit more variety. Melee and archery as a core focus, but some more gear based tools.

A mage is reagent and mana based, a warrior is gear and stamina based, and the system allows any combination in between the two extremes.

We could add some day a blood mage which use hp as a resource. With a philosophy of resource based split, it would fit and be interesting.

This week's update will be on non magic utilities. We'll open the discussion about what we had in mind.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Titles and their effectiveness.
Reply #19
One quick idea I had that i'd like to bring up is an easy way to make the 'sieze' skill useful, without adding any class-like abilities.  It will give warriors some utility while not straying away from white damage.  Simply put, if you land a 'sieze' skill, not only do you pull an enemy closer to you, but your auto attack timer is reset so you are able to immediately follow up with another attack.  This could lead to some cool combos like a sieze--> power attack  or sieze--> knockback

Re: Titles and their effectiveness.
Reply #20
One quick idea I had that i'd like to bring up is an easy way to make the 'sieze' skill useful, without adding any class-like abilities.  It will give warriors some utility while not straying away from white damage.  Simply put, if you land a 'sieze' skill, not only do you pull an enemy closer to you, but your auto attack timer is reset so you are able to immediately follow up with another attack.  This could lead to some cool combos like a sieze--> power attack  or sieze--> knockback

Good suggestion. But it may end up functionally the same as doing a power attack of double damage if the cooldown is reset. Spam clicking would ensure the follow up attack hits 99% of the time.

Our plan was to make seize do a cripple effect preventing or reducing sprinting speed for a very short duration. We would also reduce its "hit window" to be much harder to land. In essence, a "skill shot snare".
It would have the same effect as the intended pull, to keep someone in reach, but without displacement. Evading would still be possible.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Titles and their effectiveness.
Reply #21
We do not plan to go down a road where spells are too powerful and become mandatory in a group. We're also trying to add non magic utilities so that all type of utilities are present in groups even without mages.
The end goal being that any combination of characters and titles are viable and able to handle all situations, just in different ways.

However at some point we need to have incentives to specialize.
An opportunity cost for some aspects of a character are fine as long as we don't allow obvious "best" or "mandatory" choices.

I'm afraid of that. I like all the changes and plans from what i'm reading on the front pages, but i like the fact that warriors and archers rely solely on white damage. Sure, the warrior got whirlwind and power-attack, but these are barely more powerful than normal attacks. Speaking of powerattack, it takes skills to use it so you can't just spam it. I wish whirlwind took a minimum of skill and concentration as-well to use since it was too easy honestly, but then again, it's just 1 hit so never too bad.

I fear that giving archers and warriors too much utilities will break the reason to be a destroyer. Being a destroyer will become obsolete against pure archers or warriors.

So no matter what, this game should not look and play like a class system. Warriors should rely on white hits. Archers rely on white hits. Mages need staff and they're the one with utilities, AOE's, elemental damage, buffs, debuffs and all of that. If you wish to use these things like Utilities as a warriors or archer, you must be willing to take the risk of getting your world rocked by a destroyer who pray on staff users.

Let's not change combat too much pls. We can add 100 titles, but pls, warriors and archers don't need more abilities unless we take our time to think about our picks carefully. For example, Back Stab with daggers only will obviously not be spammable since it will only be useful while wielding a dagger when you're very very closed to the back of your opponent.
We only need things like that. We want to avoid the DF UW situation where warriors and archers do nothing, but spamming abilities as soon as they go off cooldown.

In the end, if an archer warrior wish to bunny hop, he must pick a staff. If he wish to CC his opponent, he must pick a staff and cast wof. If he wish to debuff them, he must pick a staff and cast slow, slash weakness or piercing weakness. We already got everything we need for everyone.
If you wish to avoid magic as much as possible, understand that destroyers need a chance to win as-well and just make a title that will allow 1 to rely a lot more on white melee/range attacks while being only allowed to cast lesser magic for the transfers.

On a final note, we can just use or modify a bit what the warriors already got that were rarely used like Knock-back and Seize. With titles, you can enhance these abilities or add new effects to these.
For archery title, you can enhance the knock-back effect on arrows. Remember that arrows also make your opponent knockback so enhance that shit along with the damage.
Not enough CC? Utility? Then don't feel ashame to use a staff. DFO was good by accident so let's now pretend that magic is supposed to be something natural for everyone. After all, it's false that everyone being a mage is what ruined the game.

Afterall, we had a great encumbrance system.

Very much agree with these concerns, especially those in bold.

Re: Titles and their effectiveness.
Reply #22
One quick idea I had that i'd like to bring up is an easy way to make the 'sieze' skill useful, without adding any class-like abilities.  It will give warriors some utility while not straying away from white damage.  Simply put, if you land a 'sieze' skill, not only do you pull an enemy closer to you, but your auto attack timer is reset so you are able to immediately follow up with another attack.  This could lead to some cool combos like a sieze--> power attack  or sieze--> knockback

Good suggestion. But it may end up functionally the same as doing a power attack of double damage if the cooldown is reset. Spam clicking would ensure the follow up attack hits 99% of the time.

Our plan was to make seize do a cripple effect preventing or reducing sprinting speed for a very short duration. We would also reduce its "hit window" to be much harder to land. In essence, a "skill shot snare".
It would have the same effect as the intended pull, to keep someone in reach, but without displacement. Evading would still be possible.

You would think so, but sieze was unfortunately pretty much useless in the game.  If it 99% guaranteed your next hit everyone would have been using it, but it was never used.  It was hard to land because it had a hitbox similar to that of a power attack and did nothing to help your next attack hit.  By the time you were swinging your next attack, the enemy was already somewhere else.  This could be changed a bit by fixing the buggyness of the skill though, because it was more effective when an opponent was standing still than moving.  So if it always worked the same way, perhaps you'd be right.  But the way I was thinking about it was power attacks themselves were already barely used because they were so hard to land.  So we might see more use for them if you could easily land one after landing a successful sieze skill.  Kind of a high risk, high reward combo since sieze itself is difficult to land and could lose you DPS.

Re: Titles and their effectiveness.
Reply #23
One quick idea I had that i'd like to bring up is an easy way to make the 'sieze' skill useful, without adding any class-like abilities.  It will give warriors some utility while not straying away from white damage.  Simply put, if you land a 'sieze' skill, not only do you pull an enemy closer to you, but your auto attack timer is reset so you are able to immediately follow up with another attack.  This could lead to some cool combos like a sieze--> power attack  or sieze--> knockback

Good suggestion. But it may end up functionally the same as doing a power attack of double damage if the cooldown is reset. Spam clicking would ensure the follow up attack hits 99% of the time.

Our plan was to make seize do a cripple effect preventing or reducing sprinting speed for a very short duration. We would also reduce its "hit window" to be much harder to land. In essence, a "skill shot snare".
It would have the same effect as the intended pull, to keep someone in reach, but without displacement. Evading would still be possible.

You would think so, but sieze was unfortunately pretty much useless in the game.  If it 99% guaranteed your next hit everyone would have been using it, but it was never used.  It was hard to land because it had a hitbox similar to that of a power attack and did nothing to help your next attack hit.  By the time you were swinging your next attack, the enemy was already somewhere else.  This could be changed a bit by fixing the buggyness of the skill though, because it was more effective when an opponent was standing still than moving.  So if it always worked the same way, perhaps you'd be right.  But the way I was thinking about it was power attacks themselves were already barely used because they were so hard to land.  So we might see more use for them if you could easily land one after landing a successful sieze skill.  Kind of a high risk, high reward combo since sieze itself is difficult to land and could lose you DPS.

We know it was useless. That's why we want to fix it.
Our answer was in the context of your suggestion. The 99% hit would be IF we implement a cooldown reset.
This is too much of an advantage and reduces the ability's drawback.

We intend on fixing all displacement effects. Knockbacks, pulls, arrows hit shake, all of those were bugged on moving targets. That's actually the cause of the bunny hopping spells

But even if we fixed that, pulling someone more into melee range once they are already in melee range is redundant. It could actually be a detriment if it actually worked. (having the target so close it can easily get behind by continuing an 8 figure)
The solution we suggest would serve the same intent: make a target easier to hit, but not a guaranteed hit. It would slow them down but still give them room to evade.

We are actually worried that even that could be too strong too. If one character gets into melee range, lands a seize, the target is slowed down for everyone, which means easy to sticky back for the initial seizer, but also easier to aim at with arrows or spells.
We'll do the fix but monitor it. We don't want one seize to decide the outcome of a fight.

It is going to be hard to introduce melee abilities to the game, because as you pointed out, it had almost none that were used.
We will be going at this extremely carefully. Especially for snares.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

  • Zeb
  • [*][*][*][*]
Re: Titles and their effectiveness.
Reply #24
are you saying with your fix to displacement effects, I could run up to someone who is moving at full sprint and knock him up with the melee knockback?! (previously would only give you a slight bump back)

One thing I hope that dosent go away with the changes is, mountain climbing with spells.. Using levitate,explosion into a wof and then stormblasting up to a ledge... it was some good fun

Re: Titles and their effectiveness.
Reply #25
One quick idea I had that i'd like to bring up is an easy way to make the 'sieze' skill useful, without adding any class-like abilities.  It will give warriors some utility while not straying away from white damage.  Simply put, if you land a 'sieze' skill, not only do you pull an enemy closer to you, but your auto attack timer is reset so you are able to immediately follow up with another attack.  This could lead to some cool combos like a sieze--> power attack  or sieze--> knockback

Good suggestion. But it may end up functionally the same as doing a power attack of double damage if the cooldown is reset. Spam clicking would ensure the follow up attack hits 99% of the time.

Our plan was to make seize do a cripple effect preventing or reducing sprinting speed for a very short duration. We would also reduce its "hit window" to be much harder to land. In essence, a "skill shot snare".
It would have the same effect as the intended pull, to keep someone in reach, but without displacement. Evading would still be possible.

You would think so, but sieze was unfortunately pretty much useless in the game.  If it 99% guaranteed your next hit everyone would have been using it, but it was never used.  It was hard to land because it had a hitbox similar to that of a power attack and did nothing to help your next attack hit.  By the time you were swinging your next attack, the enemy was already somewhere else.  This could be changed a bit by fixing the buggyness of the skill though, because it was more effective when an opponent was standing still than moving.  So if it always worked the same way, perhaps you'd be right.  But the way I was thinking about it was power attacks themselves were already barely used because they were so hard to land.  So we might see more use for them if you could easily land one after landing a successful sieze skill.  Kind of a high risk, high reward combo since sieze itself is difficult to land and could lose you DPS.

We know it was useless. That's why we want to fix it.
Our answer was in the context of your suggestion. The 99% hit would be IF we implement a cooldown reset.
This is too much of an advantage and reduces the ability's drawback.

We intend on fixing all displacement effects. Knockbacks, pulls, arrows hit shake, all of those were bugged on moving targets. That's actually the cause of the bunny hopping spells

But even if we fixed that, pulling someone more into melee range once they are already in melee range is redundant. It could actually be a detriment if it actually worked. (having the target so close it can easily get behind by continuing an 8 figure)
The solution we suggest would serve the same intent: make a target easier to hit, but not a guaranteed hit. It would slow them down but still give them room to evade.

We are actually worried that even that could be too strong too. If one character gets into melee range, lands a seize, the target is slowed down for everyone, which means easy to sticky back for the initial seizer, but also easier to aim at with arrows or spells.
We'll do the fix but monitor it. We don't want one seize to decide the outcome of a fight.

It is going to be hard to introduce melee abilities to the game, because as you pointed out, it had almost none that were used.
We will be going at this extremely carefully. Especially for snares.

Ahh I see what you meant, my bad.  Yeah honestly i'd stay far away from slows.  WoF is more than enough slow for the game and is somewhat balanced (a bit OP imo) because of it's high cooldown, counters, and potential of backfiring on teammates.  How about removing or greatly reducing the damage on sieze?  So if you land it you get a guaranteed power attack or knockback or what have you, but the combo itself wouldn't be too ridiculous.

Re: Titles and their effectiveness.
Reply #26
are you saying with your fix to displacement effects, I could run up to someone who is moving at full sprint and knock him up with the melee knockback?! (previously would only give you a slight bump back)

One thing I hope that dosent go away with the changes is, mountain climbing with spells.. Using levitate,explosion into a wof and then stormblasting up to a ledge... it was some good fun

Yes that's what we mean. But if we fix that bug then begone, stormblast and shrapnel will no longer provide as much self movement potential. That's why we say since the start that we will have to re-implement bunnyhopping, because we will "break" it by fixing other stuff.

We will not change the climbing usage of spells. We will actually ad grappling hooks and other non magic equivalent so that everyone can do it. There will just be some limitations on walls to make them more than just decoration.

One quick idea I had that i'd like to bring up is an easy way to make the 'sieze' skill useful, without adding any class-like abilities.  It will give warriors some utility while not straying away from white damage.  Simply put, if you land a 'sieze' skill, not only do you pull an enemy closer to you, but your auto attack timer is reset so you are able to immediately follow up with another attack.  This could lead to some cool combos like a sieze--> power attack  or sieze--> knockback

Good suggestion. But it may end up functionally the same as doing a power attack of double damage if the cooldown is reset. Spam clicking would ensure the follow up attack hits 99% of the time.

Our plan was to make seize do a cripple effect preventing or reducing sprinting speed for a very short duration. We would also reduce its "hit window" to be much harder to land. In essence, a "skill shot snare".
It would have the same effect as the intended pull, to keep someone in reach, but without displacement. Evading would still be possible.

You would think so, but sieze was unfortunately pretty much useless in the game.  If it 99% guaranteed your next hit everyone would have been using it, but it was never used.  It was hard to land because it had a hitbox similar to that of a power attack and did nothing to help your next attack hit.  By the time you were swinging your next attack, the enemy was already somewhere else.  This could be changed a bit by fixing the buggyness of the skill though, because it was more effective when an opponent was standing still than moving.  So if it always worked the same way, perhaps you'd be right.  But the way I was thinking about it was power attacks themselves were already barely used because they were so hard to land.  So we might see more use for them if you could easily land one after landing a successful sieze skill.  Kind of a high risk, high reward combo since sieze itself is difficult to land and could lose you DPS.

We know it was useless. That's why we want to fix it.
Our answer was in the context of your suggestion. The 99% hit would be IF we implement a cooldown reset.
This is too much of an advantage and reduces the ability's drawback.

We intend on fixing all displacement effects. Knockbacks, pulls, arrows hit shake, all of those were bugged on moving targets. That's actually the cause of the bunny hopping spells

But even if we fixed that, pulling someone more into melee range once they are already in melee range is redundant. It could actually be a detriment if it actually worked. (having the target so close it can easily get behind by continuing an 8 figure)
The solution we suggest would serve the same intent: make a target easier to hit, but not a guaranteed hit. It would slow them down but still give them room to evade.

We are actually worried that even that could be too strong too. If one character gets into melee range, lands a seize, the target is slowed down for everyone, which means easy to sticky back for the initial seizer, but also easier to aim at with arrows or spells.
We'll do the fix but monitor it. We don't want one seize to decide the outcome of a fight.

It is going to be hard to introduce melee abilities to the game, because as you pointed out, it had almost none that were used.
We will be going at this extremely carefully. Especially for snares.

Ahh I see what you meant, my bad.  Yeah honestly i'd stay far away from slows.  WoF is more than enough slow for the game and is somewhat balanced (a bit OP imo) because of it's high cooldown, counters, and potential of backfiring on teammates.  How about removing or greatly reducing the damage on sieze?  So if you land it you get a guaranteed power attack or knockback or what have you, but the combo itself wouldn't be too ridiculous.

Yes, we're very wary of touching player movement speed, or just any CCs in general.
A sprint speed reduction that does not touch run speed may be just enough to impact without going over board. And seize can be the physical equivalent to wof, but weaker due to being single target and extremely short range.

If our memory is correct, seize already does little less damage. But making sure it does little damage so it has an opportunity cost makes sense. We'll see in play testing how players use it.
If knockbacks are fixed, there will be counters. Once seized, you can either melee knock back or stormblast/begone the enemy away to reduce incoming damage but losing the spell for escape purpose.

We want melee to be a lot more involved and interesting. We're bound by latency issues to not have hold and release melee attacks, or directional ones. But we can add on to it for more finesse.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

  • Fnights
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Titles and their effectiveness.
Reply #27
As i said in another topic, i really liked  the old DF1 melee and archery and how they worked, they were just shoots and swings with only 3 skills, wirwind, powerblow and knockback. I barely used powerblow since it was hard to land, but Ww and knockback was usefull and situational.
With UW the warrior and archery classes became magic classes with melee weapons, a true disgusting crap.

If you have to balance melee and archery against hybrids and their huge arsenal of utilities and spells, then boost what already we have, less CD on the 3 skills, more efficient healing abilities, less stamina drain, less CD on potions, more magic protections, more melee and archery damage and so on...

Anyway, when you balance specs take in consideration just 1 important factor, they should matter as a standalone playstyle or everyone will stay hybrid again because will be the only effective and powerfull way to achieve the maximum dps. i'm faith in your vision, can't wait to test you title system.

I apologize and refrain from now on for calling the old playerbase nolifers but in the end these powerfull hybrids were really 24/7 macroers, not everyone was indeed but majority and expecially the players who played till the very end were, i think you knew very well some big guilds if you played on EU.
  • Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 09:37:44 pm by Fnights
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Darkfall Online (Eu-1)
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DF1 broken issues

Re: Titles and their effectiveness.
Reply #28

I apologize and refrain from now on for calling the old playerbase nolifers but in the end these powerfull hybrids were really 24/7 macroers, not everyone was indeed but majority and expecially the players who played till the very end were, i think you knew very well some big guilds if you played on EU.

So sorry but not sorry?  You can't apologize for something and then immediately take it back.  There wasn't any need to macro to be competitive.  Yes if you had the cash to spend it helped for buff others and heal others.  But you could level up damage spells -much- more efficiently on mobs.  I only macroed BEFORE they implemented the bonus gains on mobs.  After that it wasn't necessary at all and I just leveled everything up through normal play....and never had any issues competing with anyone.

  • Fnights
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Titles and their effectiveness.
Reply #29
So sorry but not sorry?  You can't apologize for something and then immediately take it back.  There wasn't any need to macro to be competitive.  Yes if you had the cash to spend it helped for buff others and heal others.  But you could level up damage spells -much- more efficiently on mobs.  I only macroed BEFORE they implemented the bonus gains on mobs.  After that it wasn't necessary at all and I just leveled everything up through normal play....and never had any issues competing with anyone.

Everyone in the alliances i played macro and grind almost overnight everyday. Maybe in the US was different? I can't say for sure since i'm speaking about EU only.

There were these power guild, zagenda, sun, mercs, robin hood, etc... that rule the best towns and continue to hell macro overtime expecially at beginning till the bloodwall era, and futher after exploiting enviroment geometries.

Sure it wasn't necessary, nobody force you to macro and grind (since took me a year to max only stats, melee and archery), but if you want to compete against these power characters you have to do the same.
This is the reason why lots of people leaved and asked for a skill cap, endend up with specializations like destro and mage killers to counter these jack of all trades characters, unfortunately too late to save the game.

Anyway, i apologize to call everyone a nolifer, you aren't indeed one but this doesn't mean majority of these people didn't and screwed up the whole game fo everyone else.
  • Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 11:21:43 pm by Fnights
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***
Darkfall Online (Eu-1)
2009~2012
DF1 broken issues