Skip to main content

Topic: Subscriptions Incoming - How to Kill Alt2Win (Read 2010 times) previous topic - next topic

  • Raap
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Subscriptions Incoming - How to Kill Alt2Win
Hello friends,

To sort of continue on my last topic of "big changes with minimal theoretical development time, big payoff", to "justify charging a subscription", here comes another very frequently requested subject that has consistently been brought up in various topics:


6th Title Slot, Industry-Only

Add a 6th title slot to all characters, separated from the existing 5 slots and the rules that apply to those. The new 6th title slot is to be an industry-only title slot, enabling players to craft or take on another logistical role on their mains without being 100% dependent on alts or clan crafters, yet at the same time not rendering alts or clan crafters obsolete as they would still be useful and also gain a 6th slot to take on yet another job. Essentially, more content for everyone, tedium reduction for everyone, and more "value" per account which makes justifying a subscription easier.

With every "main" able to pick up a crafting skill, a clan could theoretically survive without needing alts or dedicated clan crafters (alts or otherwise). Therefore a clan as a group could more easily justify paying a subscription on one account per player for the game, where as currently the idea of paying a subscription for a main plus alts is very disheartening and comes with the severe risk of incapacitating clans and losing actual players.

There is two notable roadblocks towards making this helpful and not painful:


Titled Enchanting

Enchanting must become a title-locked skill, and with very good reasoning; As-is, characters can only enchant what they can craft, and Enchanting in itself requires no title. By allowing to let everyone potentially pick up one crafting skill, you more or less force all those people to also pick up Enchanting themselves for just that one crafting skill. This will be a dramatic increase of perceived grind on the one skill that is perhaps the number one worst skill to grind in the game (in part due to the terrible GUI for Enchanting). It would also put far too much pressure on the already unstable Enchanting material market.

By making Enchanting a title-locked skill like the other crafting skills, you can then remove the restriction of only being able to enchant what you can craft. A titled enchanter could then simply enchant everything, and the quality level unlocked by the title would be the same as the skill requirement level - although I do recommend a temporarily "grace period" where this new title is instantly maxed out for a week or two after such a patch, to not remove the access to previously-earned Enchanting quality levels.

And because of the new 6th title slot, alts or clan crafters that previously did Enchanting, can now pick up the Enchanting title and enchant everything they could previously, and also everything else, ensuring no one loses their work unless they choose to not pick it up.


Extra Choices

Lastly, not everyone wants to craft, and we should encourage diversity. Fortunately, the industry titles already include a few "non crafting" options in the form of harvesting or skinning. But adding a few more "logistically oriented" choices here would eliminate the possible concern of "every warrior picks up Weaponsmithing". Allow me to toss a pair of ideas to guide this topic:

Pack Mule
Increases carry weight by 50kg, and reduces the encumbered travel speed penalty by 25%.

Survivalist
Food effects on you last 100% longer.


I hope that this topic makes this particular recurring suggestion more discussable, and perhaps @Ub3rgames could come in to clarify if at all they are open to something like this. It would be a shame if we - the players - discuss something at length, only for Ub3rgames to shoot it down after a while.
  • Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 12:47:45 pm by Raap
Proud member of TD.

Re: Subscriptions Incoming - How to Kill Alt2Win
Reply #1
This suggestion would still promote altfall as now you would be able to pack even more crafting titles on an alt (six).

I feel like you want to get rid of crafters (mostly alts now) by allowing additional title (but only crafting related) to everyone, which will result in everyone talking something to craft of course. So everyone will become a little bit less dependent on others. Smaller groups will become self sufficient quicker. Lesser need for crafted oriented players follows. And here we are, another shallow dfo version where everyone is a pvp player.

I want them to work on crafting. Replace all the stupid shit like very long crafting timers, number of items required to craft to level up, the way you craft (by just clicking a button and staring at the screen), no salvaging option.

But you can't deny that what they clearly accomplished is that with usage of skill cap they were able to actually make people choose between crafting and full pvp specced chars. We need more choices like this IMO, not less. More professions. Gatherer should be next. Maybe even divided into different branches, just like crafting is. But for it to work city nodes have to be removed. Next step - PvE titles/specs, or something like this.

Make crafting more fun, more challenging, interactive and rewarding. We need different play style options available in Darkfall. Please don't go back to pvp arena with only one role available.
  • Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 01:24:13 pm by wildNothing

  • Raap
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Subscriptions Incoming - How to Kill Alt2Win
Reply #2
I feel like you want to get rid of crafters (mostly alts now) by allowing additional title (but only crafting related) to everyone, which will result in everyone talking something to craft of course. So everyone will become a little bit less dependent on others. Smaller groups will become self sufficient quicker. Lesser need for crafted oriented players follows. And here we are, another shallow dfo version where everyone is a pvp player.

(...)

Also this suggestion would still promote altfall as now you would be able to pack even more crafting titles on an alt (six).

I do not want to get rid of crafters. If I wanted that, I'd have suggested a complete removal of the title system.

Do I want a group of players to be self reliant - AS A GROUP - faster? Yes. By loosening the title restrictions by exactly 1 title per character, you create sufficient breathing room for groups of players to play the game without feeling forced into subbing alts, and with this particular solution you do neither risk "overdoing it" nor "making crafters obsolete" since a singular title per account simply ADDS VALUE to that account regardless of the individual player's choice.

Further more, titled Enchanting adds something truly valuable to those dedicated crafters since they can enchant anything people bring them, and again to repeat myself; Additional logistically-orientated choices would eliminate the concern of "Every Mage picks up Staff Crafting". I imagine a lot of players would be extremely tempted by 50kg extra carry weight or skinning a few extra materials.

Ultimately you give players more choice without feeling like this choice detracts from combat effectiveness like the current industry titles do when put in one of the existing slots. It feels like a more "true" choice, and with a little bit of organisation a group of players can be self reliant on their mains without needing alts or the EXCEPTIONALLY RARE "DEDICATED CRAFTER MAINS", a minority so insignificant you really should not be basing your designs exclusively around them. Even so, the 6th industry title slot does nothing to remove these character's value, they too get to pick something new and valuable.

It does not promote Alt2Win to have mains pick up an industry title of their choice. Keep in mind the upcoming subscriptions for New Dawn. Combine a subscription with the possibility of being self reliant as a group of players utilizing only your main characters, and you remove a lot of the "mandatory nature" that alts currently have.

Lastly, again repeating myself; Consider what happens if subscriptions were enabled in the current environment. Everyone except for the 1% of very rare dedicated crafter mains would have to pay multiple subscriptions in order to not have their entire clan completely incapacitated. How exactly do you think this will go? Do you think more clans will pay up those multiple subs, or do you think more clans just don't want to put up with that and potentially just quit and wait for "the game to get better"? My money is on the latter.

And here is a bonus question to all those fence-sitters: Ask yourselves what a 6th industry-only title slot does that detracts from YOUR New Dawn gameplay experience? Versus what it might add for other players?
  • Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 01:34:51 pm by Raap
Proud member of TD.

Re: Subscriptions Incoming - How to Kill Alt2Win
Reply #3
You're wasting your time, they're gonna do whatever they have planned. No veering from the course.

  • memes
  • [*][*][*][*]
Re: Subscriptions Incoming - How to Kill Alt2Win
Reply #4
Crafting gear without enchanting it is a waste of time and mats

Altfall will continue forever

  • Raap
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Subscriptions Incoming - How to Kill Alt2Win
Reply #5
You're wasting your time, they're gonna do whatever they have planned. No veering from the course.

Maybe, however they actually originally planned for 6 titles with the 6th being an industry title. They ended up not going down this path because of concerns of promoting alts.

I believe this is no longer the case in the current release version of the game. I believe a 6th title slot, coupled with the Enchanting change and a few small choice additions and a subscription, will eliminate Alt2Win and make actual players - not alts - whom form groups/clans have a more enjoyable time in the game.

People still will not be able to do everything themselves, people still have to depend on others, but they also have something to offer in return. Effectively it is a means to further promote social play and even trading as more sources of items open up.

It really is a win-win scenario and I have yet to see real counter arguments that cannot be otherwise resolved.
Proud member of TD.

Re: Subscriptions Incoming - How to Kill Alt2Win
Reply #6
Just let it flop.
IGN: "Eilis Traee"
However, you have to take into account why we are introducing local banking.
In New Dawn, its main purpose is to be a convenience feature.
"Things just got worse."

Re: Subscriptions Incoming - How to Kill Alt2Win
Reply #7
I support any idea to reduce alts and crafting being funneled through a single alt with 5 crafting titles.

I'd prefer a different system.

-Keep crafting titles as is for the very small or solo players who want that and to allow backing into a new system.
-NPC creating stations to allow crafting of anything below mastery
-Clan holdings must be used for anything above mastery
-Anyone can use clan holding crafting stations but it works just like the current system that you must have the crafting titles and skills on that character.
-Clans get a clan crafting skill that is leveled by using clan crafting stations and allow anyone IN that clan to make items based on the clan crafting level.


My reasoning for these changes:
1. Eliminate funneling and burden to clan crafting alts. The existing system for clans is to create creating orders that are taken care of by someone's alt at some point in the future. Allowing everyone in the clan to take care of it themselves achieves the same results.
2. Put more value in clan holdings.
3. Put more value in clans in it for the long run and the benefits of joining a reputable clan
4. Further eliminates the pressure for alts.
5. I think more items will make it to market at affordable prices
6. Crafting is not a play style. It's hardly a role. Make lots of general and pve titles to give Farmers and pve centered players more diversity.

I'm sure i missed some filler details in this and my reasonings could go on. But that's the foundation.
  • Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 03:44:11 pm by Pallist Horror
85% /s

Re: Subscriptions Incoming - How to Kill Alt2Win
Reply #8
I like the 6th industry slot, as many do.

I agree about an enchanting-only title, and not have it locked to the individual craft.  Having to repeat the enchanting grind separately on each individual created a substantial amount of stress/division within my old clan.

I absolutely agree that crafting should not force people into five crafting titles.  However, I have known MANY pure crafters, and think it should be allowed but not forced (the current system is more on the forcing end than the allowing end)

I like the idea that Mastery crafting cant be done under NPC towers.  However, crafters should not be forced to be in a clan with a holding.  Maybe a compromise is to also allow mastery crafting in Chaos cities.

Big +1 to the OP's ideas on 6th industry title, and titled Enchanting.
  • Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 04:12:24 pm by Rimamok

Re: Subscriptions Incoming - How to Kill Alt2Win
Reply #9
How about you create COMBO title for industry, if you want to take 5/6 industry titles you will have to use combo point. so maximum would be 5 still. Initially inDev i suggested 2 industry titles and the rest combat, but gm Marcy had an idea and vision. Well you never try, you never know they say
  • Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 05:08:46 pm by Monolitas

Re: Subscriptions Incoming - How to Kill Alt2Win
Reply #10
Ppl have talked about a single industry only title since system was announced. Not part of the vishun. That sweet sweet alt account $$$$$ vishun.


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!TEH VISHUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My dreams are all dead and buried
Sometimes I wish the sun would just explode
When God comes and calls me to his kingdom
I'll take all ya sons of bitches when I go!
Let her blow!

Re: Subscriptions Incoming - How to Kill Alt2Win
Reply #11
With the sub around the corner Make everyone able to craft without Title with the actual system.

BUT if you take Title and decide to be a dedicated crafter. Make armor and weapon have more durability. Craft Faster or Multiple at the time. Free of all gold charge maybe (really dont know about this one). Give them Buff that are nice but 0 advantage pvp wise.

  • Raap
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Subscriptions Incoming - How to Kill Alt2Win
Reply #12
I support any idea to reduce alts and crafting being funneled through a single alt with 5 crafting titles.

I'd prefer a different system.

-Keep crafting titles as is for the very small or solo players who want that and to allow backing into a new system.
-NPC creating stations to allow crafting of anything below mastery
-Clan holdings must be used for anything above mastery
-Anyone can use clan holding crafting stations but it works just like the current system that you must have the crafting titles and skills on that character.
-Clans get a clan crafting skill that is leveled by using clan crafting stations and allow anyone IN that clan to make items based on the clan crafting level.


My reasoning for these changes:
1. Eliminate funneling and burden to clan crafting alts. The existing system for clans is to create creating orders that are taken care of by someone's alt at some point in the future. Allowing everyone in the clan to take care of it themselves achieves the same results.
2. Put more value in clan holdings.
3. Put more value in clans in it for the long run and the benefits of joining a reputable clan
4. Further eliminates the pressure for alts.
5. I think more items will make it to market at affordable prices
6. Crafting is not a play style. It's hardly a role. Make lots of general and pve titles to give Farmers and pve centered players more diversity.

I'm sure i missed some filler details in this and my reasonings could go on. But that's the foundation.

As with all more elaborate systems, my primary concern is the time required to develop them.

Ub3rgames has the title system as it is right now, and for better or worse, tweaking this is more cost-efficient than doing bigger reworks. In the long run, and during a time when the game is doing better financially and with a bigger development team supporting it, I would support bigger reworks 110% as a lot of New Dawn's core systems are, in my opinion, not well designed and severely lacking in any form of cohesion - however this is a Darkfall2012 problem as well.

But speaking specifically of your suggestions, I like the idea of everyone being able to "place a work order at an NPC crafter for very basic recipes". I'd like to see that regardless because there just isn't a good gameplay reason for people being unable to produce their own iron ingots or wood. I'd add to this, that this could be a good gold/activity sink, say, by adding a basic requirement before the NPC does your order. The "Smith NPC" for example might ask you to bring 5 Coal before he can batch-smelt 500 iron ingots for you. Coal would be a common drop from certain mobs, nothing too hard, but just a little flavor-work extra to make it look more "gamey".

Unfortunately your idea of locking crafting masteries behind clan holdings, will serve to alienate the rest of the playerbase. It wasn't a good idea in UW and it did not work there, so they added chaos crafting outposts where crafting gear had the same perks as crafting in clan holdings. At the very least, you should be able to craft mastery gear in chaos cities, should we go down your path... However, it goes a bit against the desire to make being blue more appealing, if the only place to craft gear for PvP is outside of "safe" NPC towns.

I believe you can alleviate the burden of tedium from players, and improve holding value, in different ways - without shifting that burden onto individual un-clanned or very small groups of players.
  • Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 05:38:32 pm by Raap
Proud member of TD.

Re: Subscriptions Incoming - How to Kill Alt2Win
Reply #13
A 6th industry slot will just be skinning on most toons and do none of the things you think it will.
  • Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 06:20:02 pm by Mycke

Re: Subscriptions Incoming - How to Kill Alt2Win
Reply #14
A 6th industry slot will just be skinning and most toons and do none of the things you think it will.
this. Needs to be 2-3 industry slots to be effective.

imo this suggestion is too late. People will continue to use their alts which they've already lvled their crafting on. However it certainly will help newer players not being pressured into either sacrificing some of their fighting potential or buy another character.

but unfortunatly
You're wasting your time, they're gonna do whatever they have planned. No veering from the course.
is probably what's going to happen. The devs are incredibly arrogant that they rather let the game flop before they start listening to feedback.
Azmoodeus Barnmere
Garbage Men