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Topic: Un-nerf group farming again (Read 692 times) previous topic - next topic

  • SomeBK
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Re: Un-nerf group farming again
Reply #30
Its almost like some people said a year ago...
That the economy doesnt function because gold is useless if there isnt a stocked market.
And markets arent stocked if players arent selling.
Players cant depend on others, or rather...its safer to rely on a clan crafter.
Sure that means you need to get all the stuff yourself, but thats a time investment to get what you want.
Instead of a time investment to make a huge pile of one material, praying that somebody will buy it (at a reasonable price).
And ontop of that, praying that others have done the same in equal enough quantaties that crafters can make equipment.
And ontop of that, praying that the crafted goods get spread out to your end of the world at a price which you can consistantly afford.

Then again, ive been told i dont believe enough in the system for it to work out.
Faith is funny like that i suppose.

This is not true though I have a full stocked market with many thing priced maybe 20% over mat cost and things dont sell very fast because gold isnt as common or useless as the forums tell us and no matter how much you all keep saying it i know this isnt true from actual play.
That's because there aren't as many customers. Put mats on the markets four months ago and they would last very little time since people needed to level crafters and such. Shit, even though Alfar markets were two to three times what elf market prices were, people were still buying them up fast.

I'd suggest to keep stocking the shit out of those markets and maybe a new player will stick around long enough to find the game less tedious due to the market nearby
Fair enough ill be there, Actually can we do it Thurs
(ive been lugging boxes of books all morning from a collection I bought and a little beat)

  • Nuyur
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Re: Un-nerf group farming again
Reply #31
so the smallest racial alliance has one market that gets stocked by one alliance to supply the few people still living in the starter area.

Wow, my bad, markets work perfectly.

I havnt played in 2 months time, i got millions of gold and im 100% confident i could buy up anything of use to me from all elf starter towns and they wouldnt get restocked for weeks.
If there's anybody half decent actively playing, you could buy up anything that gets put on there (which has a reasonable price).

Im not saying there arent trades done with the market places, just that as a player you cannot rely on both buying and selling any goods for a consistant price.
Which means, i cannot always buy equipment. But i certaintly cannot sell the materials i get from that 1 spawn just outside of my holding. So i gotta travel more, to get different mats...which isnt that much less effort compared to just farming the mats for a bag and having a crafter make it for you.

Which is what the point was about... People will buy mats, because they have got surplus gold.
People will hardly sell equipment they could use because the prior is (mostly) true.

Re: Un-nerf group farming again
Reply #32
so the smallest racial alliance has one market that gets stocked by one alliance to supply the few people still living in the starter area.

Wow, my bad, markets work perfectly.

I havnt played in 2 months time, i got millions of gold and im 100% confident i could buy up anything of use to me from all elf starter towns and they wouldnt get restocked for weeks.
If there's anybody half decent actively playing, you could buy up anything that gets put on there (which has a reasonable price).

Im not saying there arent trades done with the market places, just that as a player you cannot rely on both buying and selling any goods for a consistant price.
Which means, i cannot always buy equipment. But i certaintly cannot sell the materials i get from that 1 spawn just outside of my holding. So i gotta travel more, to get different mats...which isnt that much less effort compared to just farming the mats for a bag and having a crafter make it for you.

Which is what the point was about... People will buy mats, because they have got surplus gold.
People will hardly sell equipment they could use because the prior is (mostly) true.
yeah you could buy stuff on markets.. if i dont snipe it on my alt with remote buy first lmao
Then you get sad because there isnt ever anything good on markets or its myckes jew prices and you give up
10/10 design, dont need buy orders

3 months of uncontested ruby villages here btw
ADD ME ON SNAPCHAT: PETIT_CHAT69

You should recomend the game to new players. It's never been in a better state

  • SomeBK
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Re: Un-nerf group farming again
Reply #33
got every race covered to continue sniping.

10 alts here by the way
Fair enough ill be there, Actually can we do it Thurs
(ive been lugging boxes of books all morning from a collection I bought and a little beat)

Re: Un-nerf group farming again
Reply #34
so the smallest racial alliance has one market that gets stocked by one alliance to supply the few people still living in the starter area.

Wow, my bad, markets work perfectly.

I havnt played in 2 months time, i got millions of gold and im 100% confident i could buy up anything of use to me from all elf starter towns and they wouldnt get restocked for weeks.
If there's anybody half decent actively playing, you could buy up anything that gets put on there (which has a reasonable price).

Im not saying there arent trades done with the market places, just that as a player you cannot rely on both buying and selling any goods for a consistant price.
Which means, i cannot always buy equipment. But i certaintly cannot sell the materials i get from that 1 spawn just outside of my holding. So i gotta travel more, to get different mats...which isnt that much less effort compared to just farming the mats for a bag and having a crafter make it for you.

Which is what the point was about... People will buy mats, because they have got surplus gold.
People will hardly sell equipment they could use because the prior is (mostly) true.
yeah you could buy stuff on markets.. if i dont snipe it on my alt with remote buy first lmao
Then you get sad because there isnt ever anything good on markets or its myckes jew prices and you give up
10/10 design, dont need buy orders

3 months of uncontested ruby villages here btw

My prices are like 20% tops over mat cost, but yeah the world is flooded with gold, but any profit for a trader is just jew prices, but the world is flooded with gold.

Make sense please....

PS: For the thinking impaired, if the world was really flooded with gold and had almost no value, then anything useful would be bought instantly even if you thought it was a little pricey, since if gold is worthless who cares if you spend a little more?

Make up your fucking mind is gold worthless or is it so valuable that even a little mark up is 'jew prices'?

(The irony here is i cant even buy the mats im making stuff with for the prices im selling them for with a few exceptions and many of my prices are based on my time to farm which is still cheaper than what most mats sell for)
  • Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 04:32:15 am by Mycke

Re: Un-nerf group farming again
Reply #35
Ub3rgames should put everything in the vendor obviously with a huge markup value. Now gold is no longer useless. The question is you have 2 million gold yet don't buy a mount for  6k because you feel it's a rip off. Human psychology is indeed strange.

Crafting and placing items on the market is a time sink. I could easily just run 2 to 3 dungeon/quest and make gold. The crafting profit is razor thin with this super low population. Another reason Marketplace is not well stocked. Most players by now have ample supplies. PvP is so rare hardly new gear is needed.

The root cause of every issue is low population.

  • SomeBK
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Re: Un-nerf group farming again
Reply #36
The root cause of every issue is low population.
ding ding ding
Fair enough ill be there, Actually can we do it Thurs
(ive been lugging boxes of books all morning from a collection I bought and a little beat)

Re: Un-nerf group farming again
Reply #37
Ub3rgames should put everything in the vendor obviously with a huge markup value. Now gold is no longer useless. The question is you have 2 million gold yet don't buy a mount for  6k because you feel it's a rip off. Human psychology is indeed strange.


Yeah but hes not taking a 500-1k stead becomes a 6k mount hes talking 8k+ in crafting for 10k on market -500 on sell makes 1k+, 10-15% maybe. (and thats being generous with mat costs)
  • Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 09:25:59 am by Mycke

Re: Un-nerf group farming again
Reply #38
The funny thing about darkfall players is that they seem to like hoarding more than anything else. Even if they have millions they wont buy slighly overpriced items but instead try to get items below mat cost. They wont sell anything usefull either since someone in their clan could need it someday. Its gonna be hard to address that mentality.
A proper gold sink might help. Maybe deeds and house items(crafting stations) at npc's? Higher house tax as well maybe...

  • SomeBK
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Re: Un-nerf group farming again
Reply #39
The funny thing about darkfall players is that they seem to like hoarding more than anything else. Even if they have millions they wont buy slighly overpriced items but instead try to get items below mat cost. They wont sell anything usefull either since someone in their clan could need it someday. Its gonna be hard to address that mentality.
A proper gold sink might help. Maybe deeds and house items(crafting stations) at npc's? Higher house tax as well maybe...
This is very true. Local banking only increases that mentality. I personally put many "useful" items in random banks in my clan bank with my name and just labeled them "Avast's but take if you really need".

Territorial banking and an actual tax on all your shit in every bank needs to be applied in order to create a large enough gold sink to make markets the "convenience" feature they were supposed to be
Fair enough ill be there, Actually can we do it Thurs
(ive been lugging boxes of books all morning from a collection I bought and a little beat)

Re: Un-nerf group farming again
Reply #40
The funny thing about darkfall players is that they seem to like hoarding more than anything else. Even if they have millions they wont buy slighly overpriced items but instead try to get items below mat cost. They wont sell anything usefull either since someone in their clan could need it someday. Its gonna be hard to address that mentality.
A proper gold sink might help. Maybe deeds and house items(crafting stations) at npc's? Higher house tax as well maybe...
This is very true. Local banking only increases that mentality. I personally put many "useful" items in random banks in my clan bank with my name and just labeled them "Avast's but take if you really need".

Territorial banking and an actual tax on all your shit in every bank needs to be applied in order to create a large enough gold sink to make markets the "convenience" feature they were supposed to be
Hmmm I disagree.. Local banking means that you'd need to have lots of gold to be ready to buy stuff when you get stranded somewhere, but people don't sell cause no gold sinks... So if gold has value once again and markets get better filled with items, then you will eventually prefer to have gold than items... That was the true purpose of local  banking anyway. And it doesn't matter how much gold you make, but how much you need. DFO had that problem "solved" by turning a blind eye to macroing. Also had combat imbalances "solved" by having best weapons, best staff and so on...
Dunnin Dainstaff - TTD

  • SomeBK
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Re: Un-nerf group farming again
Reply #41
I had the same mindset during early inDev when the discussions or concerns regarding economy were taken place. Anything you brought up was quickly trumped with "Local banking with global gold solves this problem and that problem". I didn't argue too much against it because I had never played a game with local banking and thought of the concept as one I'd like to try. The only one I noticed argue against certain aspects of it was @Nuyur but only because it was running in tandem with marketplaces that were not (and still not) properly fleshed out.

Of course if we let time go on until who know when, we'll eventually have every market in Agon stocked to the brim and the world will finally be convenient but who's going to do that? And when they do, are the markets all stocked because we've finally reached that point of progression in the game or is it because no one cares to buy anything because the only people playing already have everything?
Fair enough ill be there, Actually can we do it Thurs
(ive been lugging boxes of books all morning from a collection I bought and a little beat)

Re: Un-nerf group farming again
Reply #42
Well, the problem is that we can't know.. Early in the game mats were too usefull because everyone was grinding at the same time. From now on that's not the issue anymore but now there aren't enough people around to pve or care to aquire gold. We need a large pop and gold sinks once again to tell.

For example NOT A SINGLE CLAN on the 4 islands has EVER sold local mats because they don't care... Make them care (gold sinks), bring contracts, bring meaningful pvp (warfronts, watchtowers, seatowers, landtowers...) and boom, trade!
But we are several months away from something like this... so... hoard for now...

Still as a clan we do trade with some people from time to time. I have an open thread there for months and some mats we sell for decent prices and still it will take quite some time until we sell some...
Dunnin Dainstaff - TTD

  • Nuyur
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Re: Un-nerf group farming again
Reply #43
I argued against local banking because i had a feeling that the playerbase couldnt get the ball rolling.
You needed 100's of people harvesting and basicly losing all their gold in equipment and mounts.
Their income is minimal, their expendature fairly low aswell. But it should have been such a huge pile of materials that crafters could easily to make stuff up to r40.

You needed dozens of crafters, so that they would try to sell stuff in different locations to their competitors, winning out by conveinence compared to price differences.

Then you need hundreds of pve'rs, that basicly use up the basic materials and get enchanting materials and the more advanced mats. Ratio's here are important ofcourse, you dont want to flood too badly. There's a clear drop off in basic materials once you get to r50, which means that the first group doesnt need to contribute as much once you unlock this tier.
You want r40 to be the most used tier, so that they always keep being the main engine in the economy.

Then you need not too many pvp'rs, that on average earn straight up equipment with their playtime.
They are seperate of the main economy but cause the drain for all other groups.
Affording things with gold from objectives, keys and maps. But hardly ever having materials in meaningfull ammounts.

Thats the idea for how the economy was supposed to work.
Sadly, there were a few things wrong aside from the part where there werent that many people playing...

First up, spawn scaling. Not only was it so efficient to get more materials, it also allowed alts to help individuals get more, and cheeky vets were looting 1/2 of the level 30 monsters. I mean, get rich or die trying right...

Secondly, it was too hard for players to reach each other. And perhaps still so with the lack of buy orders in markets players are guessing what other players want to buy and for what price. Im not saying you cant use trade chat, but...the harvesters and pve'rs and even pvp'rs dont enjoy being in that channel at all. So the community is disjointed in an already iffy part of the game because of trade ganking. You dont trust, you dont let yourself be heard type deal.

Thirdly, a large portion of the more knowledgable players were in clans that had/have their hearts set on being mostly self sufficient.
This caused an excellerated growth no dedicated crafter could compete against, making their lower tier items mostly worthless.
Certaintly so once the gap became larger and larger, and players were given options to buy from clans with mats.

Which is the final nail in the coffin. You cut out the whole economy when you walk up to a crafter with your mats and get him to press craft for you. He gets skill ups, maybe a little extra. You get your equipment.

Bonus points for escalated hoarding by all players because they feel they need to have "the basics" in every bank they "reasonably" make use of. All of that is stuff not being traded around, something uber argued would hurt because its gold you no longer earn money with. But...in reality its better to have 50k sitting in different banks which are usefull items, over having 70k extra gold on your pile of gold you never get to spend anyway.

Now all of this was ofcourse speculation on my part. But ive played MO, which dispite what many will claim does function like that.
Join any top clan and they will tell you what monster to farm where to get top income for your time.
They will have the characters to process said corpses into materials.
They will have the characters to process said materials into equipment.
They will export the bare minimum required to buy whatever they lack to complete their gear sets.
But ofcourse not flooding the economy with the one material they have monopoly over.

Next up is tibia, super old game. It has local banking, it also has fast travel and a mail system that allows you to skip the whole transporting of goods between towns.
What happens here is exactly what we see in game now.

You have one main bank, where you put all your shit. (well, its not really a bank because there's a 2000 item max. You buy a house that can hold infinity and you just hoard there. You drag from the bank to your house, or walk it over in your inventory if you can be botherd to do that many trips).
Any larger volumes you literally ship to a town you dont make use of. And then when you need stuff, you travel to the town, grab what you want and mail it to where you want to use it.

Everybody has most basics in every town, people use the instant travel to get to where they want to go and there's only 3 types of tedium left in the game.
1. Dragging supplies to a hunting spot.
2. Dragging loot back from a hunting spot.
3. Dragging shit into your house.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
  • Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 08:20:41 pm by Nuyur

Re: Un-nerf group farming again
Reply #44


Everybody has most basics in every town, people use the instant travel to get to where they want to go and there's only 3 types of tedium left in the game.
1. Dragging supplies to a hunting spot.
2. Dragging loot back from a hunting spot.
3. Dragging shit into your house.

This is where you are wrong the transport of good is part of risk and reward, but many of the old players just want a fast safe free ride home with their loot, but in reality logistics adds to the game.

My whole current play style couldnt exist in old DF, but with these new elements a rare mat hunter becomes a viable play style.