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Topic: No Utility (Read 575 times) previous topic - next topic

No Utility
Why in this game you have to be a mage class to have working utility??

as a warrior you still need blinds etc...

Just feels like a class game, the magnitude on utility spells is wtf .. together with armor bonuses this is just classes and takes a lot of fun out of DF.. encumbrance was a nice balancing factor in DFO..

basically armor bonuses and magnitude on ulitity effects on spells, it doesn't feel good, why shouldn't I be able to begone and get away with armor?

IIRC the late begone they added in UW worked fine in any encumbrance level

and If I want to hybrid? It's all going to be bad...

rather not have any armor bonuses tbh.

Re: No Utility
Reply #1
Launch is the only "working" bhop spell for heavier players. I agree that secondary effects are way too penalized when going a more tanky playstyle.
Azmoodeus Barnmere
Garbage Men

Re: No Utility
Reply #2
Encumberance was not working well in Df, actually.
On paper it should have, but in the end, everyone was going around in bone armor + a pair of infernal/full plate pieces with feather enchant for the best protections+good damage. It was either that or destroyer in full heavy armor.

I am playing a hybrid right now and, honestly, i don't feel gimped at all. Sure, my magic and melee does less dmg than a pure character, but in change i get:
-vs pure mage: much better protections, basically the same mobility (with a feather enchant i sit at 0 magic encumberance), can stand my own in a melee fight with my 1h+shield
-vs pure melee/archer: much better mobility, more utilities (wof/knockups/blinds)

So, in the end, it is all a matter of compromises: if you want the most dmg you have to give up on something (protection if you are a mage, mobility if you are a melee/archer)....but saying that going another way than a pure build is not working isn't true

P.s: the only ones that are really impaired in mobility are those in full heavy armor since, as a leather wearer you can begone quite well (nearly as good as a mage if you use a good staff and unburden yourself). But full heavies have a TON of protections and are really hard to kill, to compensate that
  • Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 01:32:30 pm by dariobrun

Re: No Utility
Reply #3
Launch is the only "working" bhop spell for heavier players. I agree that secondary effects are way too penalized when going a more tanky playstyle.

0.5+magnitude staff + Unburden + begone

Long cast time but you can bhop to catch a mage at cost of more damage as you have to jump and take damage more often.

Still lot of negatives and slow cast to do it :/

Re: No Utility
Reply #4
remove seize and give everyone utility..  melee in the back is already powerful, you get away? gotta get away twice. not a mage, no utility to get away? good luck. nice design (not)

Re: No Utility
Reply #5
bring back old destroyer,with begone,confusion,insect swarm,burden

Re: No Utility
Reply #6
they ruined everything with their mad tweaks

Re: No Utility
Reply #7
I mean why don't warrior specs (gear) get tools to get out of a situation or a fuckup... if I am light enough, I have to first cast unburden to make blind last a while... + the longer casttime???
@Ub3rgames do you think this is fine?? It's def not fun for non mages or anyone want to be a heavy hybrid..
Boring when it comes to solo play too.. most utility should be for all imo, decent mage can get away and reset many times, or get out of outnumbered situation.. warrior not so much.

Re: No Utility
Reply #8
You seem not to get that if both melee and mages have the same mobility/utilities, then the mage is dead every single time because he has no way to get away from melee and we all know that when you reach a mage in melee he is dead in few seconds.

If they didn't have tools to keep distance from a meleer pushing him how the hell anyone could survive then? it will be just a melee spamfest since no one would be able to avoid it and if that happens there is no reason to even be a mage when you'll be killed by everyone just running straight at you.

You can already kill a mage both with archery (if you can't manage to get close) or melee (if you do)....asking for you to have the same mobility as a mage but 4-5 times the protections is just like asking for an "i win button"

Re: No Utility
Reply #9
You seem not to get that if both melee and mages have the same mobility/utilities, then the mage is dead every single time because he has no way to get away from melee and we all know that when you reach a mage in melee he is dead in few seconds.

If they didn't have tools to keep distance from a meleer pushing him how the hell anyone could survive then? it will be just a melee spamfest since no one would be able to avoid it and if that happens there is no reason to even be a mage when you'll be killed by everyone just running straight at you.

You can already kill a mage both with archery (if you can't manage to get close) or melee (if you do)....asking for you to have the same mobility as a mage but 4-5 times the protections is just like asking for an "i win button"
If the mage have all these abilities to get out, why is he dead? If the warrior have them doesn't mean the mage still can't use them, we Don't shoot our bygones into eachother and agon is divided by 0. It's another element.. The only ones who are dead within seconds are warriors because they have no utility to create some distance if they are loosing in the moment.

Your argument could somewhat apply to movement altering spells, but it's not a runspeed boost we both activate that cancel eachother out. It's how we use the tools. And there is still the cast speed and delay of activation.

And there is definitely no reason why an archer or warrior or hybrid shouldn't also have access to the blinds (as in effective, not a 0,01sec blind).
  • Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 02:00:26 am by BennyNorth

Re: No Utility
Reply #10
You seem not to get that if both melee and mages have the same mobility/utilities, then the mage is dead every single time because he has no way to get away from melee and we all know that when you reach a mage in melee he is dead in few seconds.

If they didn't have tools to keep distance from a meleer pushing him how the hell anyone could survive then? it will be just a melee spamfest since no one would be able to avoid it and if that happens there is no reason to even be a mage when you'll be killed by everyone just running straight at you.

You can already kill a mage both with archery (if you can't manage to get close) or melee (if you do)....asking for you to have the same mobility as a mage but 4-5 times the protections is just like asking for an "i win button"
If the mage have all these abilities to get out, why is he dead? If the warrior have them doesn't mean the mage still can't use them, we Don't shoot our bygones into eachother and agon is divided by 0. It's another element.. The only ones who are dead within seconds are warriors because they have no utility to create some distance if they are loosing in the moment.

Your argument could somewhat apply to movement altering spells, but it's not a runspeed boost we both activate that cancel eachother out. It's how we use the tools. And there is still the cast speed and delay of activation.

And there is definitely no reason why an archer or warrior or hybrid shouldn't also have access to the blinds (as in effective, not a 0,01sec blind).
I am truly sorry but you don't understand DF combat. The physical player's purpose is to utilize his "utility" which is melee and finish off the mage in 2-3 seconds, while the mage's purpose is to utilize his magic utilities and keep his distance and beat his enemy with aoes (hoping his enemy isn't too good with archery, cause archery has higher dps and good players beat mages at range cause the hit their arrows).
If the physical can have the same magical utilities then the mage is bound to die to melee, cause every time he escapes, the physical will catch up. Sieze is already too strong... Physical players on the other hand SHOULDN'T die withing seconds as you say cause they have higher protections, regen and they can shield up a lot... Also hiding behind a big rock or inside a building or something to heal or something also turns it into a deathtrap for the mage that's fool enough to follow...

All and all physicals have less tools of escape but are stronger on even terms. The physical gameplay is also simpler and stronger for players with high accuracy. Overall too many advantages, too little utility..

  • SomeBK
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Re: No Utility
Reply #11
Launch is the only "working" bhop spell for heavier players. I agree that secondary effects are way too penalized when going a more tanky playstyle.
Two weeks after the armor patch first came out and back protection was removed from metal and bone armor gave melee/archery traits also was when combat was balanced in my opinion and the game stayed consistently good up until the magnitude patch. Even the chargeable ray patch was fine

Sucks for those that didn't get a chance to play back then and I hate that RoA launching ruined the growth momentum we had going during that time. I'm willing to bet if RoA didn't launch when it did, we would've still kept banging and had even more people playing.

It is what it is and now it's obviously time for the handful of people left to adapt but just picture how combat was back then and you can say things like "fuck that rocket man shit" and what not but if we would've been playing with the current title system with the armor patch pre magnitude patch we'd have much better balance. You'd have people flying around but at the cost of needing to title in the right things and then we'd have actual tanks like we did back then
Fair enough ill be there, Actually can we do it Thurs
(ive been lugging boxes of books all morning from a collection I bought and a little beat)

Re: No Utility
Reply #12
If the mage have all these abilities to get out, why is he dead? If the warrior have them doesn't mean the mage still can't use them, we Don't shoot our bygones into eachother and agon is divided by 0. It's another element.. The only ones who are dead within seconds are warriors because they have no utility to create some distance if they are loosing in the moment.
1st scenary: You will run straight at him with your shield up (he doesn't have disables) so you will soak up most dmg while he run backward/jump/shoot to keep distance...you will close the gap and when you are in melee he is screwed since now if he begones to get some space between you and him, you begone too (with the same magnitude) and are still just as close as before....so you'll still melee him down. If he launches? you'll launch right after him and keep being in melee range.

2nd scenary: You run at him while shooting arrows so now he has two options:
-run away in a straight line, jump, shoot to keep distance as long as possible --> he will get hit by a ton of easy backhits from your bow and die
-run away in a random pattern to make it difficult for you to backhit him with arrows --> you will close the gap pretty soon because you can run much more linearly toward him

Once you are in melee range, it is the same as scenary 1, you can keep him in melee range since you now have the same movement abilities---> he is dead

Quote
Your argument could somewhat apply to movement altering spells, but it's not a runspeed boost we both activate that cancel eachother out. It's how we use the tools. And there is still the cast speed and delay of activation.
And there is definitely no reason why an archer or warrior or hybrid shouldn't also have access to the blinds (as in effective, not a 0,01sec blind).
Yes, i was referring to movement spell utilities since it seems to be what the thread was about. On blinds? i agree, they could leave the magnitude/encumberance out of the equation for those (or tweak it to make it much less impactful, thus leaving a slight advantage to the mage, since he is specced for that, but not as big as it currently is)

Re: No Utility
Reply #13
@dariobrun any mage worth his salt (in a 1v1 scenario) will use Begone on his opponent and not for himself.
In a group fight it really depends on the situation and surroundings.

Still a member of SaltyBitches™ Club

Re: No Utility
Reply #14
@dariobrun any mage worth his salt (in a 1v1 scenario) will use Begone on his opponent and not for himself. In a group fight it really depends on the situation and surroundings.
Yeah, i know...but if the melee can then just instantly self-begone himself basically in melee range, you're screwed anyway.

I still think mages need better mobility/utilities in order to have a place in combat and, if that wasn't the case, we'd all go for melee/archery because it would make no sense going mage if you had the same utilities AND much higher protections being a melee/archer