Darkfall: New Dawn

General => Bugs & Feedbacks => Topic started by: Darkwulf on April 02, 2018, 07:37:28 pm

Title: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Darkwulf on April 02, 2018, 07:37:28 pm
I did some testing last night with infliction school, as I have the title.  I also have Air magic title.

My test subject was wearing plate scale set so I could see if the infliction damage vs heavy really made a difference.

Venom at 50 did 27 damage to the target
Ball Lightning at 50 did 25 damage to the target.

Test staff was a dark scepter.

On face value you can see it does a little more damage, which is good but there is a problem with it.

Venom tics 8 times.  Ball lightning tics once.

So my test subject was able to negate half the venom damage because of his natural health regen and the bonus from heavy armor.  So venom really seems to do about 10 damage.

I even tried stacking venom, rend, needles, toxic.  Or just blasting 4 air magic spells.  Air magic is still more effective at killing the target.

OBSERVATION: - Yes infliction ignores armor, but the damage was reduced to be in line with other spells schools that don't ignore armor. 

SUGGESTION: - If you get hit with an infliction spell, it should negate the targets natural health regen until the poison runs its course, (tics are finished).

Anyone else have thoughts on this?  It is a really cool school and fun to use, but feels really underwhelming.  Having a melee/archer push you when dueling is really hard to keep those tics up high enough to do anything.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Zyrre on April 02, 2018, 08:31:13 pm
The damage for me felt pretty decent in duels vs leather wearer.

But the main problem is the debuffs. They need to be changed drastically.

Frailty - tested with 93 spell skill, does about 0.03 dmg difference with weapons on target. Lasts for 2+ minutes for some reason.
Health/stam degen - does almost nothing, total stats reduced in 20 sec that it lasts is like 10, useless to cast them.
Infliction resistance debuff - lasts about 13 seconds and you need to shoot at least 5 spells with infliction dmg on target in that time for it to make more dmg than if you just shot another spell which are easier to hit.
Vit debuff on venom works very weird. If you shoot it on a full HP target, it will do like 20 extra dmg, which is insane. If you shoot it on a target with 20 hp missing, its one of the worst bolts. The VIT stat decrease seems to do almost nothing to increase infliction dmg like it says in player stats info.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: 4ifirnul on April 02, 2018, 08:50:41 pm
nothing to test,it was predictable useless school
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: mvedf2 on April 02, 2018, 09:11:39 pm
At Undeath -0.63 I cannot subjectively see any difference in tick rate. Maybe it's there.

Since there is a potion that specifically counteracts this penalty, it should be made stronger.  Presumably Exhaust is just as wimpy.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Nuyur on April 02, 2018, 09:18:57 pm
exhaust actually hurts more, because stam regen got increased quite a bit.

Exhaust was one of those "fuck it i might aswell throw it"-debuffs from DFO...it hurts if its on you because it lasted 2+ minutes.
Health degen was always shit, but in PvE it came up big on the larger monsters.
Currently even that is meaningless, because monsters dont even regenerate health.

as a side note, they are looking to change that at some point...but for now it does nothing

Though with the current durations on debuffs, its not too impressive for either
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: gosti on April 02, 2018, 09:50:11 pm
Heh. The fight doesn't end after 4 spells... If you hit 4 venoms and then stop hitting anything then yeah, after those 8 seconds the target is going to have more health than the moment you hit 4 air bolts. But if the guy shooting air spells stops hitting for the same 8 seconds - after those 8 seconds he will end with dealing 8 dmg less.

Is the insta dmg better than dots? Of course it is.
Is infliction weak? I don't think so. Time will tell tho.

My main concerns are slow debuff and the potion that removes all dots...
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: dariobrun on April 02, 2018, 10:23:28 pm
sadly, they nerfed debuffs so much that basically all of them are pretty much useless now
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Wyverex on April 02, 2018, 10:25:18 pm
Debuffs lasting the same shitty duration as buffs is a problem, as it's a lot harder hitting debuffs (enemy will actively try to dodge; ally will stand try to be still for you to land buffs)
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Darkwulf on April 03, 2018, 12:02:50 am
Debuffs lasting the same shitty duration as buffs is a problem, as it's a lot harder hitting debuffs (enemy will actively try to dodge; ally will stand try to be still for you to land buffs)

I agree about debuffs.  I preferred them the old way, when they actually lasted awhile if you were hit.  I wish they would revert that back the way it was.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Crucifilth on April 03, 2018, 12:05:39 am
Lets not forget how terribly slow the Flesh Curse projectile is.. It's an absolute bitch to land. Also from my experience Venom feels harder to land than any other bolt, might just be me though.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Wyverex on April 03, 2018, 12:15:40 am
Venom has flight speed similar to Ball Lightning (Air bolt) which is the slowest bolt.
So, not very surprising it's a bitch to land.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Janitch on April 03, 2018, 03:41:32 am
The biggest problem with infliction is that you need to apply flesh curse for the damage to become effective, BUT flesh curse is one of the slowest moving projectiles in ALL of Darkfall, on top of that every debuff lasts for a very short time, so it feels like a waste to even try hitting with it.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Maximiliuss on April 03, 2018, 03:41:51 am
Infliction has one good spell. Toxic Rain... RIP Water they nerfed utility and took it's aoe. Can Fire lose volcano, can air lose tornado?

You are also forgetting the difference between infliction and air.. stam damage. Add all stat damage you caused and use it as total stat damage pool. Good or even half decent dfo players dont die because they are out of their red bar... they were out of all bars.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Darkwulf on April 04, 2018, 10:32:00 pm
Venom has flight speed similar to Ball Lightning (Air bolt) which is the slowest bolt.
So, not very surprising it's a bitch to land.

I forgot that bolts have different speeds.  Do you know the speed order for bolts?

I guess maybe infliction will really shine fighting someone in infernal/dragon armor.  Which almost never happens.  Ultimately it will be one of the best siege magic schools in the later game.

I still think it needs a few buffs, like bolt speed, debuff speed, debuff duration, and health regen disabled during poison.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Wyverex on April 04, 2018, 11:15:34 pm
Not counting 40% speed increase you can apply to bolts:

Earth, Fire, Necro, Arcane (holy) around 60 m/s
Water is around 50
Infliction and Air is around 40 m/s

I'd suggest checking Bala's table for his InDev tests.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Darkwulf on April 05, 2018, 12:02:30 am
Not counting 40% speed increase you can apply to bolts:

Earth, Fire, Necro, Arcane (holy) around 60 m/s
Water is around 50
Infliction and Air is around 40 m/s

I'd suggest checking Bala's table for his InDev tests.

What kind of shit is that.  how do they argue that lightning moves through air slower than fire?  They need to watch some science shows.

I am Air infliction.  No wonder I think bolts are shit.  lol.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: gosti on April 05, 2018, 01:02:06 am
They need to watch some science shows.

Yeah, especially those about casting magic. Derp.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Maximiliuss on April 05, 2018, 01:09:38 am
Because air bolts do stam damage, heavy stam damage. Currently infliction is dog poo. Most magic is dog poo. You have to be very selective to be competitive. If you have infliction title, only use Toxic. pick up another mage title like fire.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Rigan on April 05, 2018, 02:35:30 am
I'm enjoying infliction personally.  In duels vs clan members it's actually proving quite strong,  all I have to do is survive the onslaught for a minute and a half and then I win, they run out of stamina and I slowly drain them away until dead.  I use stamina leech in this build and solely inflections spells

However if I fuck up once or they keep pushing on me hard. Then I lose but I think that's just mage in general.

My main annoyance with the school is the fact most fucking mobs are immune to it, so I either have to find humanoid mobs to level up on or just meditate it..

The flesh curse needs speeding up though , it's stupid slow right now. And the duration needs doubling at least, for all debuffs.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: double on April 07, 2018, 09:14:58 am
add a little more damage to needles rend and venom, make the bolt faster, flesh curse last longer and faster. remove frialty or make it some sort of utility knockup something. should be fine afterwards.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Big Abbo on April 07, 2018, 07:20:59 pm
infliction is fine, you dont know how to use it.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: SupremeBeing on April 07, 2018, 11:04:59 pm
I did some testing last night with infliction school, as I have the title.  I also have Air magic title.

My test subject was wearing plate scale set so I could see if the infliction damage vs heavy really made a difference.

Venom at 50 did 27 damage to the target
Ball Lightning at 50 did 25 damage to the target.

Test staff was a dark scepter.

On face value you can see it does a little more damage, which is good but there is a problem with it.

Venom tics 8 times.  Ball lightning tics once.

So my test subject was able to negate half the venom damage because of his natural health regen and the bonus from heavy armor.  So venom really seems to do about 10 damage.

I even tried stacking venom, rend, needles, toxic.  Or just blasting 4 air magic spells.  Air magic is still more effective at killing the target.

OBSERVATION: - Yes infliction ignores armor, but the damage was reduced to be in line with other spells schools that don't ignore armor. 

SUGGESTION: - If you get hit with an infliction spell, it should negate the targets natural health regen until the poison runs its course, (tics are finished).

Anyone else have thoughts on this?  It is a really cool school and fun to use, but feels really underwhelming.  Having a melee/archer push you when dueling is really hard to keep those tics up high enough to do anything.
You are a fucking noob, this is the issue. Not the school.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: inkarnation on April 07, 2018, 11:14:09 pm
doesnt air also drain a billion more stam points? and have more cc?
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Niburu on April 08, 2018, 10:39:14 am
They need to watch some science shows.

Yeah, especially those about casting magic. Derp.

Well i understand your funny answere but he has a point. Would make it abit more immersive i think.

Same for Water for example, should allow for some water stuff.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Big Abbo on April 08, 2018, 04:24:00 pm
Not counting 40% speed increase you can apply to bolts:

Earth, Fire, Necro, Arcane (holy) around 60 m/s
Water is around 50
Infliction and Air is around 40 m/s

I'd suggest checking Bala's table for his InDev tests.

What kind of shit is that.  how do they argue that lightning moves through air slower than fire?  They need to watch some science shows.


You realise this is a GAME that defies the laws of science on every level right? Fucking pleb.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Maximiliuss on April 08, 2018, 04:36:52 pm
Infliction is probably as bad as water right now. Your debuffs are dogshit, which was the entirety of your utility.

Toxic is good, you could use a charge ray.  But it is leagues below air/fire as a school.


PS: I like the new rend. Maybe a saving grace? Combo around it, use toxic for big damage.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: double on April 08, 2018, 05:54:28 pm
i would really like to solely use infliction , but right now its very hard. you just lack damage in 1 v1 s. venom is too slow and too weak. needles same, casting time is still a little bit long.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Mycke on April 08, 2018, 06:02:25 pm
Infliction and raw magic are anti-heavy schools that have no base armor protection against their damage type and perform relatively poorly against lightly armored enemies and excel against heavily armored ones. Both of the schools are not good 'primary' schools because of this but are excellent secondarys against heavy armor, but for some reason people don't understand this and expect these schools to do high damage against all which would make them op.

Example: if a fireball does 40 to a naked it only does like 20 to FP but if an infliction does 40 to a naked it also does 40 to FP and would be OP, so its balance by doing 30 to all, being weak against nakeds and strong vs heavies.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: malakian on April 08, 2018, 06:19:36 pm
Infliction and raw magic are anti-heavy schools that have no base armor protection against their damage type and perform relatively poorly against lightly armored enemies and excel against heavily armored ones. Both of the schools are not good 'primary' schools because of this but are excellent secondarys against heavy armor, but for some reason people don't understand this and expect these schools to do high damage against all which would make them op.

Example: if a fireball does 40 to a naked it only does like 20 to FP but if an infliction does 40 to a naked it also does 40 to FP and would be OP, so its balance by doing 30 to all, being weak against nakeds and strong vs heavies.

In theory, what you've writen makes sense.
But ingame, when you hit a plate/scale player for close to equal the damage with an elemental bolt, than with infliction and arcane its not working that well.
The arcane missiles also have lower traveling speed, than normal bolts.
Plus, this schools have lesser utility than other schools. Magic Ward and Burden are a joke, by the buff/debuff they provide.
They've put the title system in, so all titled schools should be equal, or at least compareable to other schools, with pros/cons here and there.
I totally understand the argument, that damage that bypasses armor sould be lower in base value, and it makes sense, but at the moment the balance, at least for arcane, isn't there.
The "normalizing" nerf was too hard, and they never stated, that they whould remove the knockup effect of elditrch sphere.
So NO we didn't know what would come, at least not in this dimension of nerfes.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Helwyr on April 08, 2018, 06:38:10 pm

In theory, what you've writen makes sense.
But ingame, when you hit a plate/scale player for close to equal the damage with an elemental bolt, than with infliction and arcane its not working that well.
The arcane missiles also have lower traveling speed, than normal bolts.
Plus, this schools have lesser utility than other schools. Magic Ward and Burden are a joke, by the buff/debuff they provide.
They've put the title system in, so all titled schools should be equal, or at least compareable to other schools, with pros/cons here and there.
I totally understand the argument, that damage that bypasses armor sould be lower in base value, and it makes sense, but at the moment the balance, at least for arcane, isn't there.
The "normalizing" nerf was too hard, and they never stated, that they whould remove the knockup effect of elditrch sphere.
So NO we didn't know what would come, at least not in this dimension of nerfes.

I'm titled in Raw magic, Burden is no joke. That spell can shut down the utility of a mage for some time. It's basically the only thing that makes the school remotely worthwhile atm. Although given the game is still dominated by melee archers not mages, Burden isn't nearly as useful as it could be. Magic Shield is complete garbage, the ward could be useful.  Having knock up on any spamable spell, such as Eldritch Sphere is unbalanced, and thus it should have been changed. I do agree the damage is too low, and the reduction was uncalled for in respect to this spell. On the positive side it does have a very large AE for a bolt. Now Blast is complete shit, it wasn't great before they took the dubuff off, now it's just terrible. Shrapnel as an R90, I'm just going to assume it still has to be changed because that is a joke. And of course the school lacks any sort of Ray or Field AoE.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Crucifilth on April 08, 2018, 08:30:18 pm
I'm titled in Raw magic, Burden is no joke. That spell can shut down the utility of a mage for some time. It's basically the only thing that makes the school remotely worthwhile atm. Although given the game is still dominated by melee archers not mages, Burden isn't nearly as useful as it could be. Magic Shield is complete garbage, the ward could be useful.  Having knock up on any spamable spell, such as Eldritch Sphere is unbalanced, and thus it should have been changed. I do agree the damage is too low, and the reduction was uncalled for in respect to this spell. On the positive side it does have a very large AE for a bolt. Now Blast is complete shit, it wasn't great before they took the dubuff off, now it's just terrible. Shrapnel as an R90, I'm just going to assume it still has to be changed because that is a joke. And of course the school lacks any sort of Ray or Field AoE.

Don't forget you've got maybe another year or more before Missle Fury gets changed to its final form of a magical stationary machine gun! It probably wont be viable but it sounds fun. I wanted to take Raw for that change alone but your post is the first i've seen from someone that is actually spec'd into Raw and it doesn't sound promising...
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Helwyr on April 09, 2018, 02:05:06 am
I'm titled in Raw magic, Burden is no joke. That spell can shut down the utility of a mage for some time. It's basically the only thing that makes the school remotely worthwhile atm. Although given the game is still dominated by melee archers not mages, Burden isn't nearly as useful as it could be. Magic Shield is complete garbage, the ward could be useful.  Having knock up on any spamable spell, such as Eldritch Sphere is unbalanced, and thus it should have been changed. I do agree the damage is too low, and the reduction was uncalled for in respect to this spell. On the positive side it does have a very large AE for a bolt. Now Blast is complete shit, it wasn't great before they took the dubuff off, now it's just terrible. Shrapnel as an R90, I'm just going to assume it still has to be changed because that is a joke. And of course the school lacks any sort of Ray or Field AoE.

Don't forget you've got maybe another year or more before Missle Fury gets changed to its final form of a magical stationary machine gun! It probably wont be viable but it sounds fun. I wanted to take Raw for that change alone but your post is the first i've seen from someone that is actually spec'd into Raw and it doesn't sound promising...

Yeah with the pace of development I'm not holding my breath on the Missile Fury change.  The machine gun idea will have to be pretty crazy DPS to justify the movement lockdown, because if it's no better than a mage spamming bolts with a fast staff what's the point? The current Missile Fury has nice knock up, but still sub par to what Fire offers. Eldritch Sphere I'm thinking would be a great choice vs someone with very high protection Armor whose squiring around a lot, the AE of Eldritch Sphere is big. But on a cloth wearer I do more damage with an untitled bolt or for that matter a bow when I only had 45 archery/50 dex vs 100 Raw/50+intensify, 90+ int,  75+ in the bolt. Blast the R50 is actually even worse, but it does have a small knock up.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Crucifilth on April 09, 2018, 03:21:59 pm
But on a cloth wearer I do more damage with an untitled bolt or for that matter a bow when I only had 45 archery/50 dex vs 100 Raw/50+intensify, 90+ int,  75+ in the bolt. Blast the R50 is actually even worse, but it does have a small knock up.

Lol. Makes me wonder if they even tested the school before releasing... 50+ intens with 90+ int, 75 in the bolt and its lower than 45 archery? wtf @Ub3rgames ... as for the machine gun it would be hilarious if the knock up was retained so you could shoot someone out of the sky box  :))
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Maximiliuss on April 10, 2018, 09:44:12 am
Infliction has the same stat drain as air/water. Bit more damage on paper, but has to fight health regen, not the end of the world. Needles casts and travels pretty slow. Has no knock-up/blind but has a bit of screen shake. Also casting the spells is less of an eye sore comoared to other schools.

I am not sure why they released 2 schools that both eat through armor, makes no sense to this guy. Actually I don't see why any school eats through armor, maybe they plan to add jewelry?
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: double on April 10, 2018, 01:39:32 pm
Infliction has the same stat drain as air/water. Bit more damage on paper, but has to fight health regen, not the end of the world. Needles casts and travels pretty slow. Has no knock-up/blind but has a bit of screen shake. Also casting the spells is less of an eye sore comoared to other schools.

I am not sure why they released 2 schools that both eat through armor, makes no sense to this guy. Actually I don't see why any school eats through armor, maybe they plan to add jewelry?

the damage output on infliction is far below what it should be. if you want to Make all schools balanced, make sure they are before releasing them. Right now I hit more per hit with my lvl 5 air bolt than my lvl 50 venom. I kinda regret rolling mage already. Not to speak about leather wearers.  they hit you for 40+ in the front and you hit them for 25-30 at best.
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Maximiliuss on April 14, 2018, 01:05:57 pm
Keep at it dude, your spells will become so obnoxious it'll make it all worth it.

Biggest issue is the AoE of rend, and the absolute lack of any disruption effects the r50 and nukes have and flesh curse's travel speed. The ray is good, the field aoe is very good, the debuff which is absolutely necessary is slow as dog poo really hurts. The 2 stat regen debuffs suffer from the same issues as delayed shot and slow.





 
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: Aglorien on April 14, 2018, 01:12:07 pm
no Venom doesnt drain stam and it is very slow + low max range, only rend and needle drains stam

did i mention 0 utility, they can at least make a field blind as they are tick spells as well

@Ub3rgames can you take the fog spell from Swamp Hags and make it a blind field that poisons? it would be a good utility addition to the 0 utility school
Title: Re: Infliction Feedback (not so good)
Post by: double on April 15, 2018, 06:50:21 pm
might pick up Magic again when they fix the village med rewards, balance the schools and increase title leveling speed.