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Topic: Facebook update: Get Dressed? (Read 1245 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Facebook update: Get Dressed?
Reply #45
To be 100% honest, I see New Dawn becoming (if it does indeed become anything at all) an exceptional open world, territorial warfare, racial war, conquest PVP MMO. Beyond that, I have, at this point, given up any degree of hope it will also become a great "sandbox" or MMORPG, that boasts, as I've mentioned before in these discussions: a "wayside".

And while it's easy to say "well, those things will come with time" or "launch can only have so many features", and while it is indeed difficult to refute that reasoning - these things, nonetheless, have not even been so much as alluded to or had any interest seemingly expressed in them by the Devs. And you know, you kind of talk about the things you love. You start building towards those things early, even if you realize they need to come later by necessity. But none of this has been the case.

Ub3rgames can write endless, well-articulated pages about technical tweaks they've done and their overall "player-driven", "conquest" philosophies relating to New Dawn, and I always appreciating reading those pages, yet even a single paragraph about things like "RPG" or "World Building" never get discussed in any manner other than from a very mechanical, "cold", technical standpoint. I get the feeling the internal culture within Ub3rgames is one not all that interested in these things.

Which is fine. I'll play New Dawn as a great open world PVP conquest MMO, and if it ends up being good, I'll enjoy it as a PVPer. But before I became a hardcore PVP-focused player who enjoys making PVP videos and so on, I got into MMORPG's for other reasons - reasons related to a meaningful, mysterious, multifaceted RPG game world that offered much more meaning in and of itself than solely that which other players provide. Darkfall, in contrast, is a shell of game world and is essentially completely meaningless outside of player-intrigue. While some like Oriphus and myself consider this to be a critical, obvious flaw in the game, we seem to be in the minority, which is what it is; it's good to know where things stand and adjust your expectations accordingly. It will, however, always cause me to look elsewhere for that experience.

Re: Facebook update: Get Dressed?
Reply #46
- At a global level, it creates troop commitment, which inherently is an anti-zerg tool allowing for guerrilla tactics.
- At an economic level, it contributes to the barrier of entry that makes trading viable in a localized system.
Brillant!

Re: Facebook update: Get Dressed?
Reply #47
Instead, owners and guests in houses will be able to select the house as a respawn location.
This, alongside local banking, should make houses more interesting as a base of operation for their owners.
Also brillant! Now I want to play just to get a house.
But how many houses are there? They will all be taken by hard vets if they do have these advantages.
  • Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 08:48:51 am by CistaCista

Re: Facebook update: Get Dressed?
Reply #48
The thing is though @Adûn, I have talked to Ub3r before and they have discussed their enjoyment of sandbox features from games like MO and they seemed happy to talk about adding those kind of features to the game at a later stage, but that was a long long time ago now. What started off as an attempted simple prod in this thread to try to think and plan beyond the current focus now has me questioning about Ub3r's commitment post roadmap completion. I am not sure I need a more grindy less polished version of Cyrodill to play.
  • Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 12:07:38 pm by Oriphus
'Combat will be great - The reason combat will be great is because we will make it great - However, if combat isn't great we will change it so that combat is great, therefore - Combat will be great.' paraphrased from the core circular logic answer to all questions department

Re: Facebook update: Get Dressed?
Reply #49
The thing is though @Adûn, I have talked to Ub3r before and they have discussed their enjoyment of sandbox features from games like MO and they seemed happy to talk about adding those kind of features to the game at a later stage, but that was a long long time ago now. What started off as an attempted simple prod in this thread to try to think and plan beyond the current focus now has me questioning about Ub3r's commitment post roadmap completion. I am not sure I need a more grindy less polished version of Cyrodill to play.

Well, non of you ever seem to state these features either, all you talk about is "sandbox features". What are those sandbox features? How do they look like? Like Ub3rgames, you also only give vague explanations.


As for Adûn, Darkfalls world still has way more appeal to me then any other MMO out there, so i can completely not understand your view about the nature of the DF world, it's solid imo and with local banking and the conquests fixed etc. we will have just that, a " meaningful, mysterious, multifaceted RPG game world".


"these things, nonetheless, have not even been so much as alluded to or had any interest seemingly expressed in them by the Devs. And you know, you kind of talk about the things you love."
what things? Can you name them? Other then saying "sandbox features"? Name the features XD
You basically talk nonsense the whole time.


For me, the watchtowers is just that, a strong sandbox feature.
For me, the local banking is just that, a sandbox feature.
For me, the marketplaces are just that, a sandbox feature.
I could go on and on, the game is full of sandbox.

Re: Facebook update: Get Dressed?
Reply #50
Well, non of you ever seem to state these features either, all you talk about is "sandbox features". What are those sandbox features?

Indepth contract systems to cover extensive applications
Player driven mission boards and notices with location placement freedom
Social hubs focused on downtime entertainment
the ability to create entertainment (list is extensive)
tools to allow expression of creative skills
poitical structure tools
Social hierarchy and underworld systems
Further options for player to player interaction
Physical environmental manipulation, interaction and creation
Irrigation and Farm management with a pro / con system
Extended and more intricate crafting, employment, hobbies and skills
Extended religious system
Lore focused puzzles, trophies, titles and progression
Company approved player integrated content and assets

To name but a few of sandbox type features, these are umbrella categories that could cover a million or more ideas and possibilities. I feel sorry for you that you and those that support your position, that you do not posses the small amount of imagination it takes to be able to conceive these possibilities and the added gameplay that can stem from them. Furthermore, it is not mine or anyone else's paid job in the community to provide specifics for other community members to squabble over merit and application. Ub3rgames are more than capable and are more than aware of the possibilities if time is put aside to focus on such content, it is a question of will.
  • Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 05:53:08 pm by Oriphus
'Combat will be great - The reason combat will be great is because we will make it great - However, if combat isn't great we will change it so that combat is great, therefore - Combat will be great.' paraphrased from the core circular logic answer to all questions department

Re: Facebook update: Get Dressed?
Reply #51
@vanvaldenburg

My spirited friend, I go into great detail regarding your points in this thread:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A mini TLDR though:
As I mention in the above thread, "sandbox" is a fluid, subjective term that can allude to a wide array of different things to different people. So it is important to qualify the context in which you use the term. The features you cite, such as Watchtowers, Local Banking, Marketplaces, would indeed classify as "sandbox", though in the context of Economy and Conquest. DND is filled with (and will only be more so post-launch) these types of sandbox features, while being utterly devoid of the type of sandbox features I'm alluding to, which would fall under the umbrella of RPG: Non-Combat Skills/Activities, Bauble/Utilitarian Items, World-Building, Lore, Storytelling, Questing (pre-WoW style, if you know what that is), Interactive World, "Adventurous" World, NPCS, "Off the beaten path" POI's, and the list goes on and on.



Re: Facebook update: Get Dressed?
Reply #52
The RPG elements are going to have to be player-generated for now.  Obviously, it's not a priority.

Re: Facebook update: Get Dressed?
Reply #53
The RPG elements are going to have to be player-generated for now.  Obviously, it's not a priority.
Exactly. Someone like myself will still play DND for what it DOES offer, but there's no point in being delusional/combative/triggered by someone merely calling a spade a spade. Outside of barebone genre staples, Darkfall factually lacks any kind of meaningful tools for an MMORPG experience. It is first and foremost an Open World Conquest MMO, and perhaps that's all it will ever be.

People seem to get very tilted and confused when this obvious fact is highlighted. I think the frustrating aspect for those like Oriphus and myself, is that when seeking clarification as to if the RPG side will ever be a priority, no particularly clear response is given. Though, as far as I'm personally concerned, I've written the subject off as a lost cause and am only even posting now to support someone else who brought it to light.

Ub3rgames reiterates that player-driven content will always be the mainstay of DND, and when referring to "RPG elements" in their replies, said elements are represented as "on the rails", surrogate, manufactured experiences that they consider to be inferior and unnecessary. I think that says everything it really needs to as to how DND will ultimately represent its "RPG" aspect. And that's fine. It's their vision, and the choice is up to them. The player is the one with the choice to decide if that is sufficient or not for them to keep playing.

Re: Facebook update: Get Dressed?
Reply #54
...and so the pink balloons start to pop...
"Eilis Traee" - Uprising. Clan Crafter and Public Relations.
However, you have to take into account why we are introducing local banking.
In New Dawn, its main purpose is to be a convenience feature.
"Things just got worse."

Re: Facebook update: Get Dressed?
Reply #55
The RPG elements are going to have to be player-generated for now.  Obviously, it's not a priority.
Exactly. Someone like myself will still play DND for what it DOES offer, but there's no point in being delusional/combative/triggered by someone merely calling a spade a spade. Outside of barebone genre staples, Darkfall factually lacks any kind of meaningful tools for an MMORPG experience. It is first and foremost an Open World Conquest MMO, and perhaps that's all it will ever be.

People seem to get very tilted and confused when this obvious fact is highlighted. I think the frustrating aspect for those like Oriphus and myself, is that when seeking clarification as to if the RPG side will ever be a priority, no particularly clear response is given. Though, as far as I'm personally concerned, I've written the subject off as a lost cause and am only even posting now to support someone else who brought it to light.

Ub3rgames reiterates that player-driven content will always be the mainstay of DND, and when referring to "RPG elements" in their replies, said elements are represented as "on the rails", surrogate, manufactured experiences that they consider to be inferior and unnecessary. I think that says everything it really needs to as to how DND will ultimately represent its "RPG" aspect. And that's fine. It's their vision, and the choice is up to them. The player is the one with the choice to decide if that is sufficient or not for them to keep playing.
What are some RPG things that could be added, though?  The answer isn't obvious to me when I think about it.

Re: Facebook update: Get Dressed?
Reply #56
finally a move to NYC

Re: Facebook update: Get Dressed?
Reply #57
What are some RPG things that could be added, though?  The answer isn't obvious to me when I think about it.
Farming was mentioned. We already have had the "gardens" at houses, but they are not much more than a flowerpot.
Farm areas next to houses (or player cities), requiring sowing, tending, and harvesting a crop chosen by the player, would be enjoyable for many.
Training/breeding horses was a thing I suggested a few days ago.

Just as some features for future addition (after launch) - they are not impossible I think.

Re: Facebook update: Get Dressed?
Reply #58
@corpusc
It is part of it. Personal cosmetics, being able to feed a pet, sit down in a chair you've hand placed in your house or play some in-game instruments are all fluff that allows to connect with the world and your character.
A physical world serves the same purpose of feeling there is more than just pixels.

@Oriphus
We have misunderstood what you were saying then, and ended up replying off topic.
As you can see by the content of the reply, we had understood that you considered the respawn mechanic as something that was removing depth and/or character progression. That's what we disagreed with.
This mechanic adds to both, and as a result, makes the sandbox stronger, especially regarding the alignment and diplomatic choices of a player.

@Oriphus
The replayability comment regarding cards is due to the fact that games that have endured the test of time have the best complexity to depth ratio, be it card games, chess or CS.
The point was that repeating good content is desirable and leads to positive reinforcement.

In the context of this discussion and why we used these exemples:
What we were essentially saying is that having regional conflict is not a negative leading to boredom, but a positive leading to retention.

Fighting different people everyday is better served by lobby based games and is a shallow experience in comparison to an ongoing war.
It is the context of an action and the persistent effect of an action that gives it meaning and is the whole point of a virtual world.
It is all about giving players the tools to create a narrative that motivates the fighting.

@Oriphus @Adûn
The current roadmap to release is not the end, even the full website isn't the end.
However they both are utilitarian views of what the game needs more immediately to function as a game worth playing.

We've had a hard time communicating our point of view in the past, but it is tainted by our past experiences .
From our perspective as players, many of the games we were interested in nailed the sandbox aspects and had complex systems, but lacked a sense of ongoing purpose. We're approaching New Dawn the opposite way, by keeping focus on "purpose".
In short: the conquest is the engine, while content and sandbox mechanics are the fuel. No amount of fuel can move a car without engine.

We need to avoid sand for the sake of sand, just like we need to avoid PvP for the sake of PvP.
Sand and PvP are just tools to create immersion in our virtual world.


Of course we've investigated internally many new mechanics, and design with them in mind.
Exemples of things we've scouted for are breeding/taming, NPC hireling management, farming, adding PvE content, world puzzles, books to find, expanding on quest mechanics with player created quests. You can also see things like charged buffs, taverns/inns and entertainment mechanics on the guided tour.
Ultimately, we believe the long term future for Darkfall is to have a permanent dynamic events team "dungeon mastering" the game, adding lore and content through actual interactions.

In short: There are always more things we plan to do down the line, but we haven't announced everything yet.
We try to only announce what we know we can do soon enough to be worth discussing in depth.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Facebook update: Get Dressed?
Reply #59
A practical example to illustrate the point above:
Not too long ago we realized that we could rather easily fix and expand on the weather system, and even add seasons.
This would tie in great with potential free form farming or breeding, making it an engaging mechanic that isn't combat.

However, no matter how good the farming mechanic is, it will not work out if the output isn't worth something in the market.
Wars and the need to keep troops fed, player or otherwise, is an important aspect to make a good farming system really "tic".
And that be looped back into the economy and conquest by having good farm lands for various products be localized.

Usefulness in the grand scheme of things is half the fun of doing an activity.
Especially when the end purpose of the game is to emulate a world without becoming a simulation.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.