Skip to main content

Topic: Balancing Playstyles Mega Thread (Read 22901 times) previous topic - next topic

Balancing Playstyles Mega Thread
So, a while ago, the idea was that Rays would have a cast time in DND. I argued against this, and proposed a new mechanic that would allow for counter-dodging, and you guys seemed receptive to the idea. What is the current status of the instant ray?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Darkfall/comments/3tbxkb/icy_wave_confirms_dfo_licensing/cx6bozr

I'll try to be more tactful in the future when suggesting changes :P
  • Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 01:09:45 am by Ub3rgames

Re: Clarification on Rays
Reply #1
Your suggestion is still the plan. It was a superior idea, so it won.

We will still allow players to choose between three variants:
- a no cooldown,short range and basic cast time version doing less damage than a bolt.
- a channeled version, like a flame thrower or a sith lord force lightning.
- a charge up version with increasing damage over charge. (your suggestion)
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Clarification on Rays
Reply #2
The only thing wrong with rays was that they could be chain cast en masse. I don't think that having one spell you can use every 10-15 second, with short-medium range that does damage similar to the bolt and is instantly cast was game breaking and needs to be revised.

What is motivating you to make the change? What do you see wrong with the spell itself? I'm talking here about the individual spell rather than macro ray machine guns.

Re: Clarification on Rays
Reply #3
Your suggestion is still the plan. It was a superior idea, so it won.

We will still allow players to choose between three variants:
- a no cooldown,short range and basic cast time version doing less damage than a bolt.
- a channeled version, like a flame thrower or a sith lord force lightning.
- a charge up version with increasing damage over charge. (your suggestion)


so something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h07hMlU3cM8 that does full dmg to the front of a player, but if you hit someone in the back, it does 1 dmg, unless you hold the trigger for an additional 1.2 seconds, then it does full damage, no matter what, Correct?

Re: Clarification on Rays
Reply #4
The only thing wrong with rays was that they could be chain cast en masse. I don't think that having one spell you can use every 10-15 second, with short-medium range that does damage similar to the bolt and is instantly cast was game breaking and needs to be revised.

What is motivating you to make the change? What do you see wrong with the spell itself? I'm talking here about the individual spell rather than macro ray machine guns.

The only problem with the instant ray, as a mechanic, is that there is no warning when it's about to be cast.

When you're running from a destroyer, you can hear their arrow knock, and you know when to dodge. This isn't the case with rays, so that's what we're trying to fix. We're trying to add a warning for a playing with their back turned, so that they know an appropriate time to dodge.

But we also don't want to get rid of instant rays all together as a mechanic, because doing so would reduce the overall DPS output of a mage by a considerable amount, rendering them absolutely gimped.

Re: Clarification on Rays
Reply #5
So it's a one spell that you can't reactively counter. It was more expensive than bolt to cast had short range and a cooldown. Does that really call for a nerf? Mages ruled supreme because of the aoes, not rays (at least after they fixed the ray machine gun)
That's a 25 damage on a full infernal destroyer, every 10 seconds, I don't see how it calls for balancing.

Re: Clarification on Rays
Reply #6
So it's a one spell that you can't reactively counter. It was more expensive than bolt to cast had short range and a cooldown. Does that really call for a nerf? Mages ruled supreme because of the aoes, not rays (at least after they fixed the ray machine gun)
That's a 25 damage on a full infernal destroyer, every 10 seconds, I don't see how it calls for balancing.

I agree, but if I have to choose between a cast time and this alternative, I'll choose this.

Rays were an absolute cornerstone of the mage playstyle. They added all of the intensity to a fight, and if I can retain instant-cast in any way possible, I will.

Maybe we can come to a compromise where rays only do half dmg to the back, seeing as how Destroyers were still able to compete without any nerf.

Re: Clarification on Rays
Reply #7
@nietoperz
The problem of an ability that is both instant travel and instant cast makes it easier to aimhack with.
If you combine it with the no warning aspect, and the abiity to chain it, it becomes a balance nightmare.

We will also add shared cooldowns to rays to prevent the issue you raised.

With the three variants we'll offer we can actually increase ray damage on the maximum charged one, and make it situationally interesting. It won't prevent people using hacks for releasing when on a valid target, but at last they will be vulnerable while they cast and there is a counter through blocking.

@Inositol Not the front/back aspect, but the charge up mechanic.
The charge up will be longer for max damage than in the linked video, with a unique sound cue to warn the target.
In combination with our changes introducing timed parrying/blocking and staves parrying, we could see fast reaction time players negate rays by turning around and parry, but would loose ground since it would slow them down.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Clarification on Rays
Reply #8
And so would I. If there is cast time on the ray, I will never use it as it was far inferior compared to the bolt otherwise.

I don't think this aspect of the mageplay was broken and needs any further adjustments. Melee and archery was. Lack of utilities and variety for these two made it so it was far more interesting to play as a mage. As far as I know, there are changes being made, utility added for the non-mages. So let's not get ahead and try to nerf too much, especially things that really don't need to be nerfed.

Also, I hear that crossbows are going to be instacast versions of rays, except that they will have much greater range. I fail to see the logic of adding that, and at the same time nerfing rays.

Re: Clarification on Rays
Reply #9
@nietoperz
The problem of an ability that is both instant travel and instant cast makes it easier to aimhack with.
If you combine it with the no warning aspect, and the abiity to chain it, it becomes a balance nightmare.

We will also add shared cooldowns to rays to prevent the issue you raised.

With the three variants we'll offer we can actually increase ray damage on the maximum charged one, and make it situationally interesting. It won't prevent people using hacks for releasing when on a valid target, but at last they will be vulnerable while they cast and there is a counter through blocking.

@Inositol Not the front/back aspect, but the charge up mechanic.
The charge up will be longer for max damage than in the linked video, with a unique sound cue to warn the target.
In combination with our changes introducing timed parrying/blocking and staves parrying, we could see fast reaction time players negate rays by turning around and parry, but would loose ground since it would slow them down.

Would the instant cast still be viable? To be part of a fluid combo, the instant cast was an absolute must. I can see going from 35 dmg to 50 dmg with a charge up, but something tells me that you're thinking something a bit more... gimped.

Re: Clarification on Rays
Reply #10
The problem of an ability that is both instant travel and instant cast makes it easier to aimhack with.

The range on rays was so inferior that the same aimbot that worked with them, would be as efficient with bolts at the same range. (if you specced them for speed, which everyone did).

Re: Clarification on Rays
Reply #11
@nietoperz
The problem of an ability that is both instant travel and instant cast makes it easier to aimhack with.

Of all the players in DFO, I think I was one of the most accused players of aim hacking, and surprise surprise, I didn't hack.

Outside of wallhacks, hacking was almost non-existent during the time I played.

I don't think you should be designing a game around possible abuse. Besides, in order for a character to be developed enough (7 rays) they'd have to put a considerable amount of time into grinding, just to throw it away by hacking? If they choose to waste their time, let them.

This isn't a lobby shooter, where a new account can run amok. You have to put considerable effort into making a viable character for the sole purpose of hacking, and I doubt it will be an issue.
  • Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 01:30:36 am by Inositol

Re: Clarification on Rays
Reply #12
It is not about nerfing, but having a choice.
For example, the variant with a cast time but no cooldown will be easier to aim than a bolt due to not having a travel time. Especially at medium range.

Crossbows will have a travel time, they will just be faster than arrows. Crossbow will also require you to stop to reload. So they serve the same purpose of instant cast, but in a different non-repeatable way.

With the charge up we can make it start low damage, but still instant, but raise pretty high with charge-up to encourage players warning the enemy. The choice will be "should I release now and do some instant damage to the back, or get greedy, do maybe more damage but risk getting negated entirely?"
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Clarification on Rays
Reply #13
I like the notion of having choice, but I get the sense that it won't really be much of a choice, but will rather force me to charge the ray as I would otherwise be wasting my resources.

Here- Leave the low damage of the ray as is, increase the upper damage by 20 (maxed out character) for charging it for a second or so. Boost up the cooldown to 15 seconds and make sure all the damage rays share cooldown.
That way you didn't nerf anything, and gave me choice to use the ray as I wish.

Re: Clarification on Rays
Reply #14
Crossbows will have a travel time, they will just be faster than arrows. Crossbow will also require you to stop to reload. So they serve the same purpose of instant cast, but in a different non-repeatable way.

This sounds clunky.
With the charge up we can make it start low damage, but still instant, but raise pretty high with charge-up to encourage players warning the enemy. The choice will be "should I release now and do some instant damage to the back, or get greedy, do maybe more damage but risk getting negated entirely?"

As long as it's fluid. Like, the second I start casting a ray, the timer is ticking to 1 second, literally instant timer. No charge up noises / animations, just instant number on my screen counting milliseconds, and allowing me to release ANY time, instantly.

Fluidity is a big deal, and the crossbow immobilization scares me. It might be fun for other players, I just hope that it's a very unique aspect to that one mechanic, and that you don't introduce immobilization to other aspects of the game. I never want to stop moving my character, ever.