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Topic: Melee range difference between races are equal/broken? (pics Mahirim vs Alfar) (Read 682 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Melee range difference between races are equal/broken? (pics Mahirim vs Alfar)
Reply #60
I did, not.on DND but i know how.shitty the melee feels. And how good it is at ranged combat because of strafes
Racials are something different. They shouldn't be looked at as skills that compensate large hitbox, as there is nothing to compensate for human for example yet it still gets racial skill. So Mahirims would be at loss anyway - because their racial is to compensate something while humans get something extra.

Also look at anothet example of large hitbox - Ork. Shitty racial does not compensate its large hitbox at all. Racials should be looked at but that's different story.

Larger hitbox in FPS game is a clear disadvantage. In a game, where you can't change your character every round it's even more important. If you add race wars on top of it leaving larger hitbox races with no compensation begins to look like another bad design choice. Playing much larger race should have pros and cons of similar values. Now it's a serious disadvantage (game changing) in melee and a little better angle for magic that means almost nothing.
  • Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 12:11:10 pm by wildNothing

Re: Melee range difference between races are equal/broken? (pics Mahirim vs Alfar)
Reply #61
We used tryhards in its meaning of a min-maxer that will optimize the fun out of the game in order to win.
As this is often to their own detriment, a lot of our efforts in New Dawn has been to cut down the amount of mechanics that will compel these kind of players to grind or use an obviously better option.
In this case, having a race mathematically better than others in melee will make it the optimum strategy.

In our opinion, the angle/limited view is the issue, not the reach. It makes it frustrating, which is what should be addressed.
But it is important that races can hit one another at the same time.

Nice that darkfall finally has a game developer that gets it. much easier to talk about specific problems

Re: Melee range difference between races are equal/broken? (pics Mahirim vs Alfar)
Reply #62
To explain our position on the topic:
The current system takes the length of the arms and starts at the arms level to calculate reach.
Meaning that Mahirim and Orks have a longer reach.
But they also have a larger hitbox, which means they can also be hit with a lower reach.

The intend was that this sort of being able to hit and be hit back is necessary to not force players down a specific race for melee.
What we worry about is that an increase in reach would be an absolute advantage, and since good players can adapt to the angle already, it would be an obvious min-maxing choice.

In short:
The tryhards would feel forced to play mahirim, and tryhards of other races facing them will feel frustrated to be at an absolute disadvantage.
We hear that there is a frustration, so perhaps increasing the reach would be a tolerable bandaid fix, but it will unbalance the game.
This goes back to the eternal question: should we be balancing around the middle or around the top?

As a side note, a larger hitbox is an issue not only in melee but in general: you get hit more often.
So we would rather see a more general tweak be done on the survivability front to compensate that.

Reach is more balanced now then it's ever been. I don't feel pressured to play a certain race for the first time in DF history I can play what I want

Instead of increasing reach for Mahirim and forcing me to play it (it's already my second favorite) i would rather you give bigger races a little more survivability through protections or hp or find another more unique way to differentiate

Melee reach is simply too game changing of an advantage
  • Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 02:33:30 am by Battle Smurf

Re: Melee range difference between races are equal/broken? (pics Mahirim vs Alfar)
Reply #63
To explain our position on the topic:
The current system takes the length of the arms and starts at the arms level to calculate reach.
Meaning that Mahirim and Orks have a longer reach.
But they also have a larger hitbox, which means they can also be hit with a lower reach.

The intend was that this sort of being able to hit and be hit back is necessary to not force players down a specific race for melee.
What we worry about is that an increase in reach would be an absolute advantage, and since good players can adapt to the angle already, it would be an obvious min-maxing choice.

In short:
The tryhards would feel forced to play mahirim, and tryhards of other races facing them will feel frustrated to be at an absolute disadvantage.
We hear that there is a frustration, so perhaps increasing the reach would be a tolerable bandaid fix, but it will unbalance the game.
This goes back to the eternal question: should we be balancing around the middle or around the top?

As a side note, a larger hitbox is an issue not only in melee but in general: you get hit more often.
So we would rather see a more general tweak be done on the survivability front to compensate that.


I still can not accept your mind here...It sounds like Mahrim and orks have longest arms but in same time they have very big belly, that is even bigger than they arms, to allow small races with smaller arms hit them.

Atm arm length is 0.4m For all races. I can be hitted by every race(while standing) with 2h sword from 2.9m, i can hit other races from 2.9m, but my arms is LONGER! Where is a logic?

Ok, even if my belly is so big, but what you will say about my "ass" is it same big as my belly, that allow small alfar hit me from behind with 2.9m range?

And you are totally wrong about tryhards and mahrims. They will not go to play mahrims at all! Wanna proofs? Just open youtube, find videos of TryHard, Rethel and other good melee fighters from DFO! In DFO mahrims have bigger reach, but it was not so big differance between human and mahrim, it was ~ same like between 1h club and 1h sword. Are alot of try hards was playing Mahrims there? NO! Alot of try hards start play Mahrims and even Orks with extra 3 dmg to axes. But when skill gain was increased they all turned human or human female. Why all alfar try hards stay alfar or turned humans, but not mahrims? Mahrim has bigger reach, they can addapt to play it? But, strange, they choose more easy playstyle, not harder....

P.s How many realy hard mahrim video you can find from DFO? Was they realy good in melee? No! They was good at range and in combination of few melee hits and than magic spam!
I remember: Animal UnStoppable(NA), Fengor(NA tryed play destrp), Me (EU). Is the players who played long mahrims and do videos. There was 1-2 more before, but they switched or get banned....

So, this is a facts!

You really are an idiot

Re: Melee range difference between races are equal/broken? (pics Mahirim vs Alfar)
Reply #64
In short:
The tryhards
Good to know how you feel about your most committed players.

Also consider this my last post, I'm busy tryharding elsewhere.

Bai.

Lmao you and your clan dont even qaulify as try hards you utter moron

The real try hards arnt even playing New Dawn right now and they would rape your clan 4v8

Re: Melee range difference between races are equal/broken? (pics Mahirim vs Alfar)
Reply #65
As we said earlier, the bigger hitbox is also a separate issue that needs to come with more survivability.
Right now we just have the old racial passives slightly buffed (+20hp instead of +5hp) but this needs to be revisited.

Is it right, that range is sum of ARMS+WEAPON length? And each race have differant arms length?

You ignore having height is a huge advantage for range and mage playstyles, maybe not enough on its own to counter larger hit box but it is an advantage of value that negates some of it.

Also the Mahirim strafe speed is a huge advantage for my playstyle


Re: Melee range difference between races are equal/broken? (pics Mahirim vs Alfar)
Reply #66
Also the Mahirim strafe speed is a huge advantage for my playstyle

Sadly, that you even do not buy this game yet....

Re: Melee range difference between races are equal/broken? (pics Mahirim vs Alfar)
Reply #67
Also the Mahirim strafe speed is a huge advantage for my playstyle

Sadly, that you even do not buy this game yet....

I actually bought two accounts a long time ago

You say a lot of dumbshit and have terrible reading comprehension. I used to think something was getting lost in translation because English wasn't your  primary language, but eventually I realized you were just functionally retarded

Re: Melee range difference between races are equal/broken? (pics Mahirim vs Alfar)
Reply #68
Yes, excaptly this, dear blue dorf

Re: Melee range difference between races are equal/broken? (pics Mahirim vs Alfar)
Reply #69
Mahrim reach. Yes it is bigger than dorf...
https://youtu.be/6HMHCSKzB_8

Dorf hitbox and animation:
https://youtu.be/_p8FYFNnSHQ

Alfar
https://youtu.be/X6Euhotb4ew

One more alfar (not stairs)
https://youtu.be/SW0dN1ebwIM

Just make some tests about hitboxes and reach. So, yes, Mahrim reach is bigger, and it is good. I can heat alfar/dorf from 3.0 m(i think it even abit more, but map do not show me real distance). But i found some strange's in hitboxes of dorf and alfar
Dorf hitbox much highter than his animation....may be 1 head highter. Width is seems more close to it animation.
Alfar hitbox is almost equal ti it height, but in width something wrong...Look where im shooting ray near his stomach area( thight). It looks like it is like trapezoid, or like someone bite big part from it after chest and between legs...
i still can reach him from 3.0m, but only if aiming abit left or right of his head, in center of his head i cant hit. Alfar can hit me only from 2.9m and if aim to my chest (in area of heart) but not highter or lower. In other case he will miss. In case of crouch he can hit me from 2.9m only if aiming in my shoulders, in chest - cant.
  • Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 03:23:19 pm by Unknowm Mantra

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Re: Melee range difference between races are equal/broken? (pics Mahirim vs Alfar)
Reply #70
So all this crying about mahirim and alfar reach being the same and now you realize it isn't? Lol.

Re: Melee range difference between races are equal/broken? (pics Mahirim vs Alfar)
Reply #71
Bigger reach is an advantage in PvE, and smaller hitbox is not as much felt in PvE.

Yes, I do know the game is not balanced around PvE, it's just a small advantage nobody is mentioning.
Wyverex Erisian - random scrub who enjoys DF

For the love of all that is holy
Darkfall: New Dawn is not Dungeons & Dragons
[DND or DF:ND =/= DnD]

Re: Melee range difference between races are equal/broken? (pics Mahirim vs Alfar)
Reply #72
So all this crying about mahirim and alfar reach being the same and now you realize it isn't? Lol.

I still find this is notin good state, due the problem of Mahrim's POV, angle and that head of alfars is bigger than other parts, and to "use" my long arms i need ain in specific parts, which is moving not synced with animation....but atleast i feel abit better, when knowing real numbers (Ubergames provided them) and that there is no extra bug, that i was afraid of and asking devs to share info to test it.

Re: Melee range difference between races are equal/broken? (pics Mahirim vs Alfar)
Reply #73
So all this crying about mahirim and alfar reach being the same and now you realize it isn't? Lol.

for all purposes it is. I couldn't move the alfar back to a point where only the mahirim hits. not trying to keep this alive,  But it's important everybody understands  What we're talking about



So all this crying about mahirim and alfar reach being the same and now you realize it isn't? Lol.

I still find this is notin good state, due the problem of Mahrim's POV, angle and that head of alfars is bigger than other parts, and to "use" my long arms i need ain in specific parts, which is moving not synced with animation....but atleast i feel abit better, when knowing real numbers (Ubergames provided them) and that there is no extra bug, that i was afraid of and asking devs to share info to test it.

I haven't tested my dwarf yet but I think I'm gonna find it's the same as the alfar, There isn't a point where the mahirim can hit me and I can't hit him with an alfar or dwarf.

fyi.  I did do the hitbox comparison it's under the question section, here is a recap


yellow-mahirim
red-alfar
blue-dwarf

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Re: Melee range difference between races are equal/broken? (pics Mahirim vs Alfar)
Reply #74
Alfar fatter than dorf, heheh.