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Topic: I spent a week leveling fire magic (feedback) (Read 4100 times) previous topic - next topic

  • Textra
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Re: I spent a week leveling fire magic (feedback)
Reply #45
This Guy is a whiny bitchh

C'mon man, that's not fair. He's just expressing his views on the game. Ub3rgames need feedback from the community. That's why we're here.
History - NA-1: River Fey - Mostly freelance, but I joined the Aussie clan Bushrangers for about a month or two before quitting DFO.
Current - EU-1: River Fey - Unaffiliated.

Re: I spent a week leveling fire magic (feedback)
Reply #46
@Jezvin
This is why we are adding meditation points to some PvP objectives, to allow players to level from PvP and attract players to these activities thanks to the progression aspect.
We also hope that the final engagement system will be sturdy enough that we'll be able to allow PvP gains again.

The best behavior comment is based on the alignment system and the spawn scaling mechanic.
If you gain faster progression from sharing spawns with other players, then you feel compelled to not be ostracized from the in game society as it would limit your grouping potential.
In other words, wanting to level or gain loot faster means you'll play nicer with others, which will generally improve the community to be more welcoming and have a meaningful player culture.

"This reads as you are saying it's an MMO so it needs a grind."
No, it explains why MMORPGs work.
Having long term goals and having activity serve both an intrinsic and extrinsic purpose allows for each play session to be a form of "double dipping".
People that play full fledged MMOs do it to be part of a world and to have it on their mind most of the time. They see it as their main game.
While they may play arena games on the side, what they really want is to create their own character and theorycraft its evolution.
Create builds, experiment, discover a world full of wonders, face higehr dangers and later, come back and conquer them.

To project into the future and reflect on the past and the progress made is important. It means a player is able to think about a game rather than just experience it.
This is the strength of MMORPGs, and the reason of their longevity.

The irony is that people that want to PvP right now would have less PvP opportunities without player progression.
On the other hand, reducing the power gap, implementing diminishing returns and making player progression more engaging with group content and eventually more challenging encounters will make it not a grind and only the positive points of long term progression will remain.
This is for the best for both sides of the discussion.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: I spent a week leveling fire magic (feedback)
Reply #47
@Jezvin
This is why we are adding meditation points to some PvP objectives, to allow players to level from PvP and attract players to these activities thanks to the progression aspect.
We also hope that the final engagement system will be sturdy enough that we'll be able to allow PvP gains again.

The best behavior comment is based on the alignment system and the spawn scaling mechanic.
If you gain faster progression from sharing spawns with other players, then you feel compelled to not be ostracized from the in game society as it would limit your grouping potential.
In other words, wanting to level or gain loot faster means you'll play nicer with others, which will generally improve the community to be more welcoming and have a meaningful player culture.

"This reads as you are saying it's an MMO so it needs a grind."
No, it explains why MMORPGs work.
Having long term goals and having activity serve both an intrinsic and extrinsic purpose allows for each play session to be a form of "double dipping".
People that play full fledged MMOs do it to be part of a world and to have it on their mind most of the time. They see it as their main game.
While they may play arena games on the side, what they really want is to create their own character and theorycraft its evolution.
Create builds, experiment, discover a world full of wonders, face higehr dangers and later, come back and conquer them.

To project into the future and reflect on the past and the progress made is important. It means a player is able to think about a game rather than just experience it.
This is the strength of MMORPGs, and the reason of their longevity.

The irony is that people that want to PvP right now would have less PvP opportunities without player progression.
On the other hand, reducing the power gap, implementing diminishing returns and making player progression more engaging with group content and eventually more challenging encounters will make it not a grind and only the positive points of long term progression will remain.
This is for the best for both sides of the discussion.
So accepting that the time requirement is a design choice that I can agree with, my issue now changes shape. If lessening my suffering's length is not an option, to solve my dilemma I must now target the actions of my suffering and move to the idea of alternative progression choices. (I still am not sold on suffering together we will see when you get the patch out)

First meditation is logging off and not playing the game, it's a catch up mechanic unless it's active while playing.

Besides meditation, there is no active progress tied to the other activities in the game related to combat. I see a disconnect in wanting progression to allow your character to grow and build an investment in the world, and have only 1 primary task in the world as a means to invest. Your roadmap covers a significant amount of other events in the world that don't work with the progression and at worst can be limited by it. Since I don't see much of this discussed in your road map and without going into suggestions and such, how do you feel about the way I see this?


Re: I spent a week leveling fire magic (feedback)
Reply #48
There will be "instant" uses of meditation, for those that do not logout often enough to use it fully, in the form of spending 10 to 1 to level instantly a skill.
And of course, if the engagement system proves to be sturdy, PvP itself will be source of leveling, so it will remove most of your doubts.

However, spawn scaling isn't "suffering together", it is about scaling difficulty to ensure that the PvE is more rewarding, but more importantly challenging and engaging too.

This is where your approach is problematic, you seem to consider PvE to be "suffering". If it is truly the case, then there isn't much we can say that will change your mind.
Darkfall is one of a rather rare kind nowadays, where PvE is done by camping spawns rather than clearing raids or completing quests.
It is an inherently more social manner of handling progression, and this is a differentiation factor. For many old school players, it is an actual selling point.

Making spawns challenging, to the point where players are forced to work well together or wipe, is what creates friendship and long term memories, even when meeting strangers on a spawn.
This won't prevent us from creating more quests, or our own form of "raids", but it will be for the sake of hand holding, play session compartmentalization or variety, not as the main progression route.

To answer your final question, there are multiple forms of progression in Darkfall. Not all types of events has to satisfy all progression equally.
You have character progression, economic progression, player skill progression and empire progression, as broad general categories.
As long as an event in the game is rewarding to one of these, then it has purpose.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: I spent a week leveling fire magic (feedback)
Reply #49
@Jezvin   Well-made sandbox game, you don't really need to kill 1000s of mobs to progress your character, so you get stronger so you can grind some more, just look at Minecraft or EvE. Darkfall's always been an oldschool grinding game, the whole game is designed around it. People want to compare it to UO, but the more accurate comparison would be the Lineage 2 imo, very similar concepts, neverending grind, fighting for spots etc, very similar audience, people loving to see some artificial numbers going up, as it makes them feel fulfilled, skinner box mentality. At least Ub3r is trying to lower the power gap in this iteration and they will add little more sand to the box in the future hopefully.

  • Textra
  • [*][*]
Re: I spent a week leveling fire magic (feedback)
Reply #50
@Jezvin  Well-made sandbox game, you don't really need to kill 1000s of mobs to progress your character, so you get stronger so you can grind some more, just look at Minecraft or EvE. Darkfall's always been an oldschool grinding game, the whole game is designed around it. People want to compare it to UO...

Indeed. That's how the original devs pitched Darkfall to us circa 2004; UO on steroids. Sadly it was a bit of a bait and switch. Still, no one forced us to buy the game. I'd just like the game to have contained more of the rich content that the original developers envisaged. Who knows, maybe that will still happen. I wouldn't say DF was designed around grinding, but that depends on ones definition of grind. For me playing the game has never been grindy, but my definition of grind is somewhat unconventional, evidently.

The skill progress system in DF is not that different from UO - you did actions to increase base attributes from 0 to 100, you did skilled actions increased skills from 0 to 100, and you only got gains from doing actions related to those skills. I guess that's where the original devs made the connection to UO. UO could be every bit as grindy as DF, but the difference was that UO was not perceived as primarily a PvP game so the grind to skill up was the game. That's DF's biggest problem; i,e, it's perceived as primarily a PvP game, and thus players just see the leveling of skills as standing in the way of that end. I think given the direction that Ub3rgames are heading is going to disappoint a lot of the people who want DF to be primarily PvP based with PvE tacked onto the side as an after thought. Here's hoping the RoA guys don't fall over and manage to give those players a place to play.
  • Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 10:17:54 am by Textra
History - NA-1: River Fey - Mostly freelance, but I joined the Aussie clan Bushrangers for about a month or two before quitting DFO.
Current - EU-1: River Fey - Unaffiliated.

Re: I spent a week leveling fire magic (feedback)
Reply #51
That's how the original devs pitched Darkfall to us circa 2004; UO on steroids. Sadly it was a bit of a bait and switch. Still, no one forced us to buy the game. I'd just like the game to have contained more of the rich content that the original developers envisaged.
Yeah, I agree. They promised 3D UO, delivered full loot Lineage 2 ;)
Grind and PvP was the only content and majority skipped grind with exploits and macroing.
  • Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 11:36:31 am by sodapop

  • rykus
  • [*][*][*]
Re: I spent a week leveling fire magic (feedback)
Reply #52
UO felt much more immersive than the current DF in a variety of ways.

Roaming NPCs added an element of there being more in the world than just the players.  Like the players were the foreground, but there was also a background happening too, and it added another element that DF lacks.  Age of Conan had some of the best NPCs I have ever seen.  Maybe other games have similar or better, I dunno, but the NPCs in AoC had life activities to do and full conversations between them.  DF feels extremely cold and dead in comparison.

Items were part of the world in UO, not just your backpack/bank.  If you could hold it in your pack, you could also place it into the world around you (unless it was bound to you somehow, obviously).  Including things like player-crafted poisoned food, trapped explosive chests, books with player-written stories, any type of weaponry, or anything you feel like setting in the world.  Object manipulation of this sort also lent itself incredibly well to player housing and decoration.  This one element added more sand to the box than just about anything in UO. 

There's more to a good MMO, even DF, than just PvP.  Not everyone plays the same way, or for the same reasons.

Re: I spent a week leveling fire magic (feedback)
Reply #53
There will be "instant" uses of meditation, for those that do not logout often enough to use it fully, in the form of spending 10 to 1 to level instantly a skill.
And of course, if the engagement system proves to be sturdy, PvP itself will be source of leveling, so it will remove most of your doubts.

However, spawn scaling isn't "suffering together", it is about scaling difficulty to ensure that the PvE is more rewarding, but more importantly challenging and engaging too.

This is where your approach is problematic, you seem to consider PvE to be "suffering". If it is truly the case, then there isn't much we can say that will change your mind.
Darkfall is one of a rather rare kind nowadays, where PvE is done by camping spawns rather than clearing raids or completing quests.
It is an inherently more social manner of handling progression, and this is a differentiation factor. For many old school players, it is an actual selling point.

Making spawns challenging, to the point where players are forced to work well together or wipe, is what creates friendship and long term memories, even when meeting strangers on a spawn.
This won't prevent us from creating more quests, or our own form of "raids", but it will be for the sake of hand holding, play session compartmentalization or variety, not as the main progression route.

To answer your final question, there are multiple forms of progression in Darkfall. Not all types of events has to satisfy all progression equally.
You have character progression, economic progression, player skill progression and empire progression, as broad general categories.
As long as an event in the game is rewarding to one of these, then it has purpose.

Well I think you are dreaming. This ideal Darkfall simply cannot exist pushing for it and ignoring the reality is a mistake. Darkfall is competitive, any game where you can lose months of work and effort to other players is competitive. In the nature of fun competition people want a fair shot. Darkfall's progression establishes that to get a fair shot you need to raise your skills for months. Locking this behind PvE is an insult to people who enjoy the PvP and want to enjoy that aspect of darkfall. I look at your road map 4 maybe 5 of the 7 game related topics are about PvP, then you sit here and say it' not really suppose to be a PvP game. This is a joke. The majority of this game is PvP, you play darkfall because it's open PvP full loot whether you want to spend time PvEing or if you want to craft and gather, PvP is the spice that makes this game appealing over doing those things in WoW or some other MMO. Darkfall is a competitive game, player skill and gear are set up to not be an issue. Skill is on you, and gear is risk vs reward. Character progression isn't fair, it's who has invested more time, and in a game so based around PvP you are forcing people to invest time into PvE, not only forcing them into PvE but making it a significant amount of time PvEing to get fair PvP. No safe zones make it PvP, Full loot makes it compeditive, that's Darkfall you can't keep those and say it's not suppose to be a PvP game.

Re: I spent a week leveling fire magic (feedback)
Reply #54
PvP is a consequence (positive) of going out into the world, not the driving force behind the game.  It can be avoided or sought out, depending on your choices. 

  • Textra
  • [*][*]
Re: I spent a week leveling fire magic (feedback)
Reply #55
I look at your road map 4 maybe 5 of the 7 game related topics are about PvP, then you sit here and say it' not really suppose to be a PvP game. This is a joke. The majority of this game is PvP, you play darkfall because it's open PvP full loot
No, you play Darkfall because it's open PvP full loot. Please stop speaking in the objective "so say we all" voice. This game is a balance of PvE, PvP, and crafting, according to the people making the changes. AV never got the balance right, but Ub3rgames are attempting to. If that's something you don't like, you're not going to have a great time in New Dawn.

whether you want to spend time PvEing or if you want to craft and gather, PvP is the spice that makes this game appealing over doing those things in WoW or some other MMO. Darkfall is a competitive game, player skill and gear are set up to not be an issue. Skill is on you, and gear is risk vs reward.
Again, to you. I'm here because I enjoy all the aspects of the game; PvP, PvE, Crafting, the community. That's the game Ub3r want to make, and it's the game I want to play. I read the road map, liked what I saw, and decided to play. If I didn't like it, I'd go find something else to do. Maybe you should try RoA, if you haven't already.

Character progression isn't fair, it's who has invested more time,
WTF?! I kinda feel like you're trolling at this point, but I'll presume you aren't. You're playing an MMORPG. Character progression isn't just a feature of an MMORPG, it's the core of it. Yes, if you invest more time, you'll be better than those who haven't. If you want insta twitch PvP were all that matters is how good you are with a mouse/keyboard and how good your ping is, you're not going to find it in an MMORPG like Darkfall. I might be wrong, but it sounds like you just want Darkfall to be an FPS with swords and magic. Maybe you even think that's what Darkfall is "supposed" to be. PvP was only ever supposed to be one element of the game, not the focus of it. And even if it was the focus, you can still effectively PvP with non-maxed skills that you didn't have to grind a week for. You achieve that by joining a clan, group PvP'ing, and playing to your weaknesses and strengths as a group. This is not Counter-Strike. You're not a lone soldier who lands in game with a gun, some ammo, and starts taking head shots.

and in a game so based around PvP you are forcing people to invest time into PvE, not only forcing them into PvE but making it a significant amount of time PvEing to get fair PvP.
It's not just based around PvP. This is the fundamental error in thinking that you're making. Darkfall is based around a MMORPG system. It's not a first person shooter. The original run of DFO became about PvP because AV released a half finished game that lacked the PvE content that would make it a fully fledged MMORPG.

No one is forcing you into PvE. You can always choose not to play. Many of us actually want to play the PvE. We enjoy the PvE. Bizarre huh. If you don't like PvE, don't play an MMORPG.

No safe zones make it PvP
There's no logic in this statement. No safe zones makes it dangerous. That is all. It doesn't mean that the game is just a giant PvP arena with character progression getting in your way.

Quote from: Jezvin
Full loot makes it compeditive, that's Darkfall you can't keep those and say it's not suppose to be a PvP game.
Yes you can. You can have a full loot MMORPG with open PvP and still say, this is not a PvP game. In fact, Ub3r's road map implicitly says this very thing.

I feel like at this stage we're just arguing for the sake of it so I'll end by saying that while I don't share the desire for an arena-like Darkfall, I do understand why some people want that game. The sad thing is, you're probably not going to find it here. You can argue your view of Darkfall as a primarily PvP game until you're blue in the face, but it changes nothing ultimately. Ub3rgames have their vision and for better or worse, it looks like they're sticking to it. Maybe a third dev team somewhere will buy a license from Aventurine and make Darkfall into a FPS game. The Darkfall equivalent of CS or CoD.
  • Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 07:11:14 am by Textra
History - NA-1: River Fey - Mostly freelance, but I joined the Aussie clan Bushrangers for about a month or two before quitting DFO.
Current - EU-1: River Fey - Unaffiliated.

Re: I spent a week leveling fire magic (feedback)
Reply #56
@Jezvin
What exactly is your definition of competitive?
Because the reality is that Darkfall never was a fair game, and it is not supposed to be.
In some ways, Darkfall IS a competitive game, but not at the scope you seem to expect it to be.

Darkfall is meant as an empire building game, and this what we are going after with New Dawn.
In broad terms, Darkfall is a strategy game where the various units are controlled by individual players.


Aside from fluff events, there will never be a fair match up, be it through equal numbers, individual player skills, equipment, character progression or even a balanced map/battleground.
And there shouldn't be, because that is not the point of the game.

The point of the game is to fight over land, which means compete over resources.
To that end, the proper way to play the game competitively is to always place yourself in a position where you are at an advantage, and to fight over objectives that will give you advantages in the future.

Imagine any RTS, where most of the battles are fought over denying resources to the other player, and where the purpose of micro management is to inflict the most resource losses for the least resource costs.
This is why Darkfall needs full loot, to allow for attrition wars.

For the whole attrition to work, Darkfall needs a working economy for items lost and gaiend to have a conversion value and be a tangible impact on the various factions at play. The stronger the economy, the stronger the reward structure of the game is, and the more fights occur.  It also needs troop commitment to improve the strategy aspect of things, where if you make a wrong decision sending your units at the other end of the map, getting flanked is a tangible risk.
Which is why Darkfall needs proper economic mechanics and local banking.

The entry in our roadmap that are PvP are simply more objectives to fight over in the grand scheme of things, but they all exist within the framework of the reward structure and have a purpose in the context of a long term war.
In the end, Items, gold or Xp are just resources you need to harvest. They all provide a form of progression.
Placing a watchtower near a valuable spawn, or conquering a holding near a dungeon is PvP for the sake of PvE. PvE which itself will be for the sake of being better at PvP which will allow to secure more PvE and so on.
This loop of interdependence between PvP and PvE is why Darkfall needs PvE.

In the end, you cannot have empires without citizens or potential recruits.
All the above points serve as a way to motivate empires, but also their members. Players are selfish, they want to earn stuff for themselves, and a permanent progression is one of the safest way to keep players engaged in the long term. Gear grind is extremely frustrating and is prone to cause feedback loops which is why we need to reduce the impact of gear a bit.
It serves also to have regular MMORPG players enjoy the game and serve as content for the empires, either being customers, tax payers or targets for them. And these players need to have some protection to enter a world where they can slowly grow socially and join groups then clans then alliances.
Keeping a pool of potential recruits is why Darkfall needs to be a sandbox, with virtual world content and fluff content.
Even racial wars serve a purpose in the end goal of empire building, as it is just a big tutorial to the defense and expansion of a player driven empire.


Many players will see the value of a single individual part of this large ecosystem.
For you, it clearly will be the PvP aspect and you will be a soldier unit. We'll even add actual "tourney" mechanics as a type of fluff for players that would enjoy having a competitive sub-game within the real game.
But other players are just waiting to be a trader/crafter/harvester in a world that actually needs them, and some just enjoy doing PvE in a dangerous world with meaningful progression.
Alll three playerbases need to exist and interact with each other for it to work out in the long run.

So no, in the end, Darkfall is not just a competitive PvP game, it is meant to be much, much more.
There are many existing competitive games out there, there is no point adding another one, and Darkfall would be a poor one at that.
However there are very few empire building games, and Darkfall is already halfway there. it just needs a final push to get where it needs to be.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: I spent a week leveling fire magic (feedback)
Reply #57
The skill progress system in DF is not that different from UO - you did actions to increase base attributes from 0 to 100, you did skilled actions increased skills from 0 to 100, and you only got gains from doing actions related to those skills. I guess that's where the original devs made the connection to UO. UO could be every bit as grindy as DF, but the difference was that UO was not perceived as primarily a PvP game so the grind to skill up was the game.
If that had been the case, felucca/trammel split would've never happened. I'm sorry, but your statements about perception of a game you throw Jezvin's way also apply to yourself.

Jezvvin's argument that the only real sand in the box (player created content) is based on PVP, be it roaming, raiding, sieges or the political meta game, still stands. Your claims to the contrary are dishonest at best. You can apply as much circular reasoning you want. You can dress that pig called DF PVE in a dress, it will still have horrible path finding, be obnoxiously repetitive and in an objective comparison to modern titles just bad. But yet it stands there in your way to your little shovel in the sandbox, presenting it's ugly face. There is no arguing that people still enjoy it in some way or the other, but making it out to be the game's raison d'être I just can't take serious.

The discussions in GD since pay2play turned rather interesting: it's like felucca/trammel happened in forumfall. Just that this time in this iteration of the game the most fervent, loudest and obnoxious posters are not from felucca but trammel. It's like there is no middleground with this game. Case in point: all those "then just don't play the game" statements, this time just worded more nicely:
No one is forcing you into PvE. You can always choose not to play. Many of us actually want to play the PvE. We enjoy the PvE. Bizarre huh. If you don't like PvE, don't play an MMORPG.

Je suis un écureuil
Your friends are less important than the future of Darkfall.

Re: I spent a week leveling fire magic (feedback)
Reply #58
...
The point of the game is to fight over land, which means compete over resources.
...
So no, in the end, Darkfall is not just a competitive PvP game, it is meant to be much, much more.
I am confused. Honestly.  ::)
Je suis un écureuil
Your friends are less important than the future of Darkfall.

  • Textra
  • [*][*]
Re: I spent a week leveling fire magic (feedback)
Reply #59
The skill progress system in DF is not that different from UO - you did actions to increase base attributes from 0 to 100, you did skilled actions increased skills from 0 to 100, and you only got gains from doing actions related to those skills. I guess that's where the original devs made the connection to UO. UO could be every bit as grindy as DF, but the difference was that UO was not perceived as primarily a PvP game so the grind to skill up was the game.
If that had been the case, felucca/trammel split would've never happened. I'm sorry, but your statements about perception of a game you throw Jezvin's way also apply to yourself.
Perhaps, but the difference is, I chose not to play when it became a game I didn't prefer. Jezvvin is complaining about character progression being unfair, not just that it's out of balance - that's my larger point with respect to Jezvvin's case. My perceptions on UO are not strictly relevant other than pointing out that there are similarities to between the two games, hence DF should indeed be considered an MMORPG, not a FPS with swords.

Jezvvin's argument that the only real sand in the box (player created content) is based on PVP, be it roaming, raiding, sieges or the political meta game, still stands. Your claims to the contrary are dishonest at best. You can apply as much circular reasoning you want. You can dress that pig called DF PVE in a dress, it will still have horrible path finding, be obnoxiously repetitive and in an objective comparison to modern titles just bad. But yet it stands there in your way to your little shovel in the sandbox, presenting it's ugly face. There is no arguing that people still enjoy it in some way or the other, but making it out to be the game's raison d'être I just can't take serious.
You're over stating the matter (and you're putting words in my mouth). I didn't say PvE was the be all and end all of this MMORPG or it's reason for existing, just that even in a game with strong PvP elements, PvE matters. Yep, the balance is important, but Jezvvin is not arguing balance, he's arguing that character development and progression stand in the way of his FPS version of Darkfall. At least that's the argument he ends up making.

The discussions in GD since pay2play turned rather interesting: it's like felucca/trammel happened in forumfall. Just that this time in this iteration of the game the most fervent, loudest and obnoxious posters are not from felucca but trammel. It's like there is no middleground with this game. Case in point: all those "then just don't play the game" statements, this time just worded more nicely:
I can't help that it remains true. Simply stating that people do this is not an argument against it, regardless of how nicely they put it. ;) Ub3rgames have a road map. That road map is a plan to make Darkfall a balanced MMORPG. This includes PvE and other non-PvP elements. It may be the case that the ability to PvP is the impetus for the movement of sand around our little box, but Jezvvin argument amounts to it's not fair I have to do PvE to make my character better, which is fine, in Counter-Strike, but absurd in an MMORPG.

...
The point of the game is to fight over land, which means compete over resources.
...
So no, in the end, Darkfall is not just a competitive PvP game, it is meant to be much, much more.
I am confused. Honestly.  ::)

What's to be confused about? Darkfall is not just a competitive PvP game. The point of my car is to get me from place A to place B, but it doesn't mean my car is just a box on wheels. It has a stereo, air-conditioning, nice rims, some rocking stickers on the bumper. The point to DF can even be PvP (for argument's sake), and still not be just a PvP game. Okay, so you see PvE content as a dressed pig, so what? Should Ub3rgames not make the attempt to realise their vision of the game? Should they not try to build the MMORPG they think Darkfall can be? Just because you or Jezvin don't think it can be done? Maybe you're right. Maybe it can't be done. I guess that remains to be seen.
  • Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 08:30:49 am by Textra
History - NA-1: River Fey - Mostly freelance, but I joined the Aussie clan Bushrangers for about a month or two before quitting DFO.
Current - EU-1: River Fey - Unaffiliated.