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Topic: Reactive enviroment... (Read 840 times) previous topic - next topic

Reactive enviroment...
When I heard on the cast that you could freeze water, it was great, why don't games already do this, anyway, this can be done with fire, lightening, etc... The world should react to stuff...

Re: Reactive enviroment...
Reply #1
I feel like the dev team here is being way too overzealous with their plans.  They should start small and slowly work up from there.  I can't imagine how much of a nightmare it would be to code freezing a body of water.  What would happen to ships?  Or players entering or exiting the surface at the same time the effect was applied?  

Re: Reactive enviroment...
Reply #2
What we are expressing is a long term vision, but we expect it to be 1 year-1 year and a half of full time work.
Of course, this is an inaccurate estimate as we do not know our velocity with the codebase yet.
This is an indie project after all, so it is useful for early adopters to know what to expect for launch and the first expansion.

In Darkfall ,water was flat, and ships and player collisions was already handled in it. A frozen tile is just a dynamic object like a strongbox or a camp fire. We can even add that ships break the surface, or melee hits as well. Relative to other changes, it will be easy and made easier by our other work with dynamic objects (watchtowers, siege camps, traps, etc)
For entering at the same time, it will be handled by the collision engine. We do not know yet how it will behave, but we expect it will just "push" the player away in the shortest path (up or down depending on where the center of gravity was) If it doesn't do that already, then we'll implement it that way.
We could go the route of "it roots the player, and you have to break out with melee" but we won't, that would be obviously OP.

We have more plans regarding reactive environments, but that will depend on the engine itself and we cannot go in details yet until a few months into InDev. Things like being able to blow away/ignite torches in dungeons, have crystals reacting to different type of magics and so on.
We know that world objects can react to attacks (one of the first quests has you attacking a goblin totem, or use mana drain on objects) but we do not know how well dynamic lighting is implemented. For example a mana missile casted light on the ground, but sometimes with a weird latency and it was a small effect. We have no idea how much we can scale that up.
We would love to eventually get waves in the game, and material based particles on hit, but that would be part of a graphics overhaul and only if we have the budget for it.

In conclusion, regarding the opening suggestion: YES but so much later and unknown it might as well be a no at this point.

If you have more suggestions of cool things you would like to see, carry on in this thread. We'll take notes and maybe in a few years, it will exist.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Reactive enviroment...
Reply #3
One thing that I remember about both DFO and DFUW was the shadow and lighting system was gorgeous.  Like surprisingly well done for how huge the world was.  Problem was, most people just turned shadows off to be able to see enemies better.  How do you guys feel about forcing shadows?  And if you do, would there still be ways for players to get around it client side by cranking up the brightness a ton? 

It would be awesome to be able to use specific spells and items as strategic tools during fights at night, or in a dark cave or dungeon.  For example, casting Flames of Vengeance would brighten up the surrounding area for its duration.  Casting ice storm on top of it would potentially extinguish it though.  The Light spell would actually be useful, as well as the Beacon spell.  (Beacon when casted on a target would make them glow and caused a unique sound effect to emit from them).

Re: Reactive enviroment...
Reply #4
Yes, the shadows were weirdly amazing. But to be fair, that's one thing that be said about Darkfall as a whole.

We are considering forcing shadows down the line, but only if we manage to make them less taxing. With computers being better nowadays, this shouldn't be an issue, but we still need to make sure to minimize the impact.
However, we cannot do anything about the brightness increase. It can be done through the physical screen or at the driver level.
One "work around" is that we'll have flashbangs and confusion. They can cause actual physical pain in other games when used at normal brightness, so the increased brightness to see at night in Darkfall would multiply the effect.
We can make the tail of these effects last longer, so that increased brightness will cause blindness longer too.

On spells and tools, you'll enjoy this weeks update then.
We will indeed have "extinguishing" effects of sorts, and more interactions between spells. We also want to give more viability to "useless" spells, just like we're trying to do with weapon types.

As a quick sneak peak, Beacon was useless mostly because of a lack of range to use as a focus fire marker. Just increasing it's reach would help out a lot. It will also give possible counter play: "Aristos has beacon, prepare focus heals!"
and counter-counter play: "Beacon is on Aristos, but target is Salohcin!"
That will add depth to the meta.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Reactive enviroment...
Reply #5
Yes, the shadows were weirdly amazing. But to be fair, that's one thing that be said about Darkfall as a whole.

We are considering forcing shadows down the line, but only if we manage to make them less taxing. With computers being better nowadays, this shouldn't be an issue, but we still need to make sure to minimize the impact.
However, we cannot do anything about the brightness increase. It can be done through the physical screen or at the driver level.
One "work around" is that we'll have flashbangs and confusion. They can cause actual physical pain in other games when used at normal brightness, so the increased brightness to see at night in Darkfall would multiply the effect.
We can make the tail of these effects last longer, so that increased brightness will cause blindness longer too.

On spells and tools, you'll enjoy this weeks update then.
We will indeed have "extinguishing" effects of sorts, and more interactions between spells. We also want to give more viability to "useless" spells, just like we're trying to do with weapon types.

As a quick sneak peak, Beacon was useless mostly because of a lack of range to use as a focus fire marker. Just increasing it's reach would help out a lot. It will also give possible counter play: "Aristos has beacon, prepare focus heals!"
and counter-counter play: "Beacon is on Aristos, but target is Salohcin!"
That will add depth to the meta.

I don't recall DFO being demanding at all as long as you had a good processor.  I think it had issues dealing with multiple cores though.  So if you could increase it's ability to utilize them I feel playing with high quality shadows would make very little impact.  And oh man, the first time I got a decent rig to play on and cranked the shadows up I was blown away by the shadows of the trees swaying in the wind.  I never saw that aspect of the game and it made the whole world suddenly feel more alive. 

Chaining confusions was already something that needed balancing in larger team fights.  Unless they shared a global cooldown, I don't think adding another similar blind to it is a good idea.  All this talk of new types of CC and AoE is the one thing turning me off from the project.

That does sound very exciting, looking forward to that read.

That is true, our clan tried practice testing it for shot calling in duels, but the range wasn't long enough to be really useful.  Instead we just used a spell and called out the spell as a focus.  For example, I was the shot caller for my clan and when I would land pungent mist on a target i'd just say "focus the pungent!".  Much easier to quickly identify than trying to tag a name.

Re: Reactive enviroment...
Reply #6
It wasn't demanding on the GPU, but the networking used up a lot of the CPU. Removing shadows did have an impact though.
We have  leads to improve the multi core aspect, but that's just things we'll experiment to improve the situation. No promises until we have a decent grip on the codebase and have a planned an actual solution.

For confusions, yes it could become an issue in larger fights. We don't plan anything about that for now. If it turns out to be annoying too much, we may have a diminishing return, like eyes getting used to the light and the brightness increase being progressively reduced after each confusion in short succession.
But again, no plans here, we don't feel it is a high priority.

We are talking about all those things now so we have time to discuss them and improve upon until we get a chance at implementing them. We knew it would be a hard discussion, and it was among ourselves too. But this way, there won't be any bait and switch.

There is a need to re-balance utilities across the skill lines in order to reduce the grind and time to viability. That is a fact.
We're trying to do it in the smoothest way possible, and actually introduce counters to previously existing ones as we are doing it.

We did the same experiments, and ended up with the same solution. Or casting a field aoe first to call targets for field aoes.
We would like to introduce more non damage tools for strategy, and improve the leadership interface(or introduce one)
The first inexpensive step is beacon.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

  • Fnights
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Reactive enviroment...
Reply #7
We are considering forcing shadows down the line, but only if we manage to make them less taxing. With computers being better nowadays, this shouldn't be an issue, but we still need to make sure to minimize the impact.

Please don't do this, shadows give me true bad performaces in many mmorpg with a drastic change in fps. I don't have a huge rig but is enought to play Darkfall with the pixel shader at maximum, grass at minimun and shadow OFF (expecially during sieges).

UW was crappy and more demanding because they force some effect to everyone and you can't disable them.

You should always make a game based on the minimun requirement possible with the best compromise between quality and performance, and leave the rest toggeable at player choice.
  • Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 11:33:58 pm by Fnights
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Darkfall Online (Eu-1)
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DF1 broken issues

Re: Reactive enviroment...
Reply #8
As we said, we'll wait and see if we can improve the game enough that it is viable to force.

We still have a surviving pc from back then that ran the game at 20-30fps. It will be the baseline configuration. If we can improve the performances to 60fps on that pc, then we'll consider forced shadows, but not until then.
We are so far away from that point that it is not worth worrying now.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Reactive enviroment...
Reply #9
What we are expressing is a long term vision, but we expect it to be 1 year-1 year and a half of full time work.
Of course, this is an inaccurate estimate as we do not know our velocity with the codebase yet.
This is an indie project after all, so it is useful for early adopters to know what to expect for launch and the first expansion.

In Darkfall ,water was flat, and ships and player collisions was already handled in it. A frozen tile is just a dynamic object like a strongbox or a camp fire. We can even add that ships break the surface, or melee hits as well. Relative to other changes, it will be easy and made easier by our other work with dynamic objects (watchtowers, siege camps, traps, etc)
For entering at the same time, it will be handled by the collision engine. We do not know yet how it will behave, but we expect it will just "push" the player away in the shortest path (up or down depending on where the center of gravity was) If it doesn't do that already, then we'll implement it that way.
We could go the route of "it roots the player, and you have to break out with melee" but we won't, that would be obviously OP.

We have more plans regarding reactive environments, but that will depend on the engine itself and we cannot go in details yet until a few months into InDev. Things like being able to blow away/ignite torches in dungeons, have crystals reacting to different type of magics and so on.
We know that world objects can react to attacks (one of the first quests has you attacking a goblin totem, or use mana drain on objects) but we do not know how well dynamic lighting is implemented. For example a mana missile casted light on the ground, but sometimes with a weird latency and it was a small effect. We have no idea how much we can scale that up.
We would love to eventually get waves in the game, and material based particles on hit, but that would be part of a graphics overhaul and only if we have the budget for it.

In conclusion, regarding the opening suggestion: YES but so much later and unknown it might as well be a no at this point.

If you have more suggestions of cool things you would like to see, carry on in this thread. We'll take notes and maybe in a few years, it will exist.

Oh man, awesome... Yes, everything should react with everything... Ya, no rush on it, greatness is not quick... I say no to forcing, everything should be a setting, shadows look awesome, but it they (or anything else) bogged my sys down, I would want to change the settings or turn them off... If a solid object hits a solid object it should count... Oh, hehe my question I came to ask :D anyway, is the world going to be kill all over or towns be zones where you are not killable...  I love the system eve has, but I also like that you can call a guard in Mortal Online, but that system might be exploitable...  Plus, to target the player & type /guard is maybe a little to much when you need one fast...  Have to figure out how to make the system fair & not to much power to one side... Oh god, I accidentally hit reply on above post, instead of post, thought I lost what I typed, but I didn't...
  • Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 08:36:14 pm by Salohcin

Re: Reactive enviroment...
Reply #10
There is an auto save draft feature.

For towns, it will be similar to eve, if someone not at war attacks you in town, automated reaction occurs. It is possible to survive but it is an effective deterent.

However people at war can jump you everywhere, but we will add a daily cost to the at war status to limit that to real wars and reduce griefing war declarations.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Reactive enviroment...
Reply #11
Sorry for posting this so late, but this will also mean like fire can light a torch, set something on fire also right? Like if someone is wearing chain & gets hit by many fireballs the armour heats up/starts to glow in turn burning the player... Ofcourse water would cool it...
  • Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 04:30:31 pm by Salohcin

Re: Reactive enviroment...
Reply #12
This sounds cool, but it will be a lot of work. Just reactive environments will be a very long term addition, so adding any gear based reactions will be even longer, if ever. They are already abstracted away with certain armors having more or less elemental protections.

A point that is important for Darkfall is to keep simulation elements quite low. This is not meant to be a realistic game, but a great large scale combat game. Be it PvE or PvP we need to keep a tight grip on our depth to complexity ratio so that the game is interesting for long term followers but remains attractive to new players.

In short, we're aiming at easy to learn, hard to master.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Reactive enviroment...
Reply #13
No rush, if you think it will be more trouble then it is worth leave it out...

Re: Reactive enviroment...
Reply #14
Because i chose not to make an other thread, i'll post this idea here. What is being discussed here goes perfectly along with my suggestion.

I think ground environment should affect movement and for water turned into ice, while on it should affect your movement as-well.

-So on ice, you slide just like in any retro game like megaman.
-On snow, dirt and sand, you leave prints behind temporary as you move forward.
-We don't have to cover-up solid grounds; we already make loud noises on them as if we had high heels sandals.
-A rocky area don't have to be so flat. Cairn is mountainous, but flat for the most part.

Then, we can introduce more type of grounds like a quick-sand.

-IF you stand still on a quicksand, you sink in. You must jump repeatedly to put your feet back on top of the quick-sand in order to jump normally again.
-When it's snowy, the ground should be snowy as-well if it's not already.(foot prints everywhere).
-When it rains, the grass and dirt should make you slide. I used to play football and i know how easy it is to slide on grass & mud when it rains.

Once that's done, you can introduce more abilities similar to turning water into ice: sand to a quick-sand. While i don't like CC's i think that's a smart way to introduce a few more that only works based on the area you're fighting in.