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Topic: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger. (Read 2237 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #45
What is the point of making reactive parry/block when you have people with 200 ping and with 20? The fact that you can not really stickyback with high ping is bad enough, but reactive blocking with 200ms difference will be nearly impossible to balance with single server. Be really careful please...

Disabling blow and shot, they're ruining the parry meta in melee to melee.

-my regards

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #46
This is just a draft of our post. it was planned for two weeks from now, but we are opening up the discussion now, that way a better post will be published when we release it to the wider public.

- Rebuke: if parry is timed properly, an attack within 1s returns a low portion of the blocked damage in addition to normal damage, rebuked target slides 2m away.
- Riposte: if parry is timed properly, next attack within 1s returns a high portion of the parried damages in addition to normal damage.
It is technically possible that two players keep on riposting each other forever, with each loop increasing damage. The first one to fail will take massive damage.


- seize: as we described, low damage, gives a slow state
- cripple arm: slow attack annimation, user is "open", reduces target attack speed shortly.
- Opener: disabling blow effect with shorter duration(1-2s), gives short "open" state to target.
- Power attack: slower attack, global cooldown, user becomes "open", more damages, even more when target is "open".
- Fencing blow: very quick attack, medium damage, crits on "open" target.
- Lounge forward:opens user, attacks has slightly longer reach.
- dazing blow: medium damage, short "flash" blind and then drunkness effect.
- unbalance: low damage, target slides 2 meters away.
- knockback: the skill we already know
- grapple: no damage and prevents any action from user until canceled. weak wof effect in the middle of user and target, Canceled by "unbalance".
- Flurry: Increases attack speed and stamina cost as long as hits connect, long lasting open state on user and some global cooldown afterwards, even for only 1 hit (high risk, high reward move) Will have a max speed cap.
- Special Technique: depends on weapon, like the side effect of power attacks. Could be title unlocked (we could have multiple fighting styles for the same weapon, like dojos for lack of better term)

There you have quick timing, combos and combo breakers, and a more dynamic melee fighting. Each has a use in melee duels, but also versus mages. All effects are short duration, 0.5 to 2 seconds.
Each can be affected by the weapon, hammers has more dazing blow effects, less fencing blow/flurry speed.
We will add global cooldowns so you can't use pwoer attack, switch weapon and reuse it again.
We'll have cooldowns, cost and damages balancing during play testing. Animation length will be used as a pseudo cast time with a "hit window" like power attack used to have.
We can add specific effects for transmutes and the hybrid combo title.

As an early version of formations:
- shield wall: if 2 or more players maintain block with shields in overall same direction, they have rebukes even if they were perma blocking.
- Spear wall: if 2 or more players maintain parry with polearms in overall same direction, they have pain field before them and can lounge freely(no "open" debuff) once every 5secs

Those are only ideas, but we believe it would give a  more varied melee combat. Please forgive the draft nature, this is barely cleaned up internal notes.

How are we supposed to bind so many actions?

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #47
@Natris
Latency is a good point, one we are trying to take into account.
We want to try it out in game before making a final judgement, but we feel that a 500ms timeframe is a decent window to use an active parry or a disabling blow/shot. If average human reaction time is 200ms, if the worst ping is 200ms, it still leaves 100ms leeway.

The idea is that by having reactive parrying we can, without limiting movement abilities, have a stabler melee to melee combat with some player skill added to it. The 8 figures were a side product of the shallowness of the game on that front, since it was the only way to differentiate player skill between two adversaries, and we'd like to add more ways.
For example, close quarter combat in buildings, or in a wof, could devolve into just whacking each other until the undergeared/underleveled character died. It also meant that just in case, carrying and having leveled daggers was advantageous, increasing the perceived grind.
If we can make even stationary combat have some depth and player skill involvement, then we would have improved the game, and in the open it will be weaved in among the traditional form of combat and switching which will increase its depth too.

@_SeeD_
We are currently working on improving the interface, to alleviate the binding issues.
In the case of melee actions, they will all have a single bind necessary: All whirlwinds share a hotbar slot, even if they have different skills to raise in the skills menu.
We will also improve the interface to have multi bind slot (sword and board and default abilities) and to automatically switch hotbars when a specific weapon is equipped.

In a design side, some will be contextually timed actions(parrying/blocking and riposte/rebuke), or will have different effects on certain weapons so players don't have to bind all of them, depending on how they use their weapons.
The goal though is that execution and the decision process of fighting melee versus melee should be as deep and interesting as fighting ranged vs ranged.

Of course, nothing here is set in stone, and these are just ideas we would like to try out and see how they pan out with actual gameplay. Some may turn out to be redundant or not work out, but we feel it is a worthy goal.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #48
I've always wanted darkfalls melee/blocking/poise to be a copy paste of dark souls....

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #49
biggest problem w/ this fancy melee stuff is the 150ms RTT most of the playerbase is going to have to deal with

ive never seen melee netcode not be dogshit

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #50
Fast-paced, interactive combat that is reasonably viable all the way up to 300 ping is the one shining light DF has/had.  I'd hesitate before making wholesale changes to major facets of if I were @Ub3rgames, especially with all the comprehensive sandbox element changes/additions they are also tackling.

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #51
The irony is that we would rather not touch any of the combat, but we have to if we want to solve the lack of sand. And we have to do it early if we want to balance it properly before Live launch.
Here is our stand point as developers:
- Balance tweaks are relatively small changes with high consequences. Great bang for our buck.
- Balance takes time to settle and analyze, whatever needs to be checked has to go through play testing and get used for a while.

As an illustration, imagine if, without tweaking any thing else in the game, we could balance 1h and shield as a main weapon simply by implementing timed blocking? And that this gets proved after months of players on the InDev server using shields daily?
The effort would be less and the results would be confirmed by live metrics rather than theorycrafting.

Most sandbox elements depend on combat balance. Specifically one of our main drive to have a healthy economy can only work if the combat balance is decent.
Why would you craft shields or harvest/fight over components necessary to craft 1h weapons if they aren't used? Make them viable in combat and all of a sudden you have room for more crafters and organic hotspots in the world related to that aspect of the economy.
The beauty with a game like Darkfall is that game balance creates sandbox content.

Not to mention that combat balance is also necessary if we wish to reduce the grind and power gap. Which is another large issue we need to tackle.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #52
Fast-paced, interactive combat that is reasonably viable all the way up to 300 ping is the one shining light DF has/had.  I'd hesitate before making wholesale changes to major facets of if I were @Ub3rgames, especially with all the comprehensive sandbox element changes/additions they are also tackling.

We can improve the game without eleminating the fast paced aspect of the game, but let's just not pretend that melee combat was gold in DFO, it was not.

It was fun to sticky back, fun to dish-out a lot of damage in melee, fun to go in a 8 figure in a melee vs melee only because the movement was the smoothest part of DFO honnestly, better than most games, but there was next to 0 interaction with parry in melee for several reasons.

As a result, in DF, if you have 2 very good melee players, the winner is most-likely the one who start off the melee trade with more health. This mean, you only go melee when you know you got the advantage. Imo, that needs to change somehow.

PS, can you quote trashsmasher for me? I can't see what he wrote, he's on my ignore list.