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Topic: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger. (Read 2413 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #15


We consider the system broken, that's why we're trying to fix it.

I'm afraid this is why we're going to continue to disagree. 

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #16
So to you there is no power gap issue to fix and no unbalance?
And more importantly, can you affirm with certainty it is impossible to create a better meta?

Edit: We came up with an analogy for our feelings regarding combat mechanics and meta game.

Combat mechanics are like an engine and skills are the fuel components. The meta game is the mixture of all skills to produce the fuel.

For us, Darkfall has the best engine there is. However it has been operated with bad fuel which lowered its performances. A great car will still be fast even if it was using bad quality fuel.

Experimenting with a more balanced mixture would make the combustion more efficient and the car faster.
  • Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 07:57:33 am by Ub3rgames
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

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Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #17
I'm afraid this is why we're going to continue to disagree. 

Indeed you will, you post already in the ROA forum and you are against any change to the base game, you want the jack of all trades and keep the status quo as much as possible. But ROA probably will be what you are asking for since there everyone is for a vanilla Darkfall, pvp with steroids (they call it so in their roadmap).
 
DND have a very different approach and vision, as they said will be like EVE in a fantasy setting, why make even this version the same as everyone else? Let Uber work on their ideas, and let us to test it when they have finally the source code.
  • Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 08:42:59 am by Fnights
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Darkfall Online (Eu-1)
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DF1 broken issues

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #18
So to you there is no power gap issue to fix and no unbalance?
And more importantly, can you affirm with certainty it is impossible to create a better meta?

Edit: We came up with an analogy for our feelings regarding combat mechanics and meta game.

Combat mechanics are like an engine and skills are the fuel components. The meta game is the mixture of all skills to produce the fuel.

For us, Darkfall has the best engine there is. However it has been operated with bad fuel which lowered its performances. A great car will still be fast even if it was using bad quality fuel.

Experimenting with a more balanced mixture would make the combustion more efficient and the car faster.

There is definitely a power gap.  And the best way to fix it definitely doesn't have to be drastically changing the meta.  For example, just adding your title system or a soft skill cap with skill decay would do wonders.  Grenades and grappling hooks aren't the only answer.

Sure, of course it's possible to come up with something better.  And during the beta you guys could throw anything you want to try out at us.  But you're -already- so sure of yourselves that it needs to be fixed and improved upon.  The combat META is the main thing that kept people around.  Not just the mechanics. 

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #19
Here is the irony: Our title system is what will impact the meta the most.

If the implementation is succesful, it means that more play styles will become viable, which means people will play entirely differently.

It is the same with balancing weapons and spells to all have a use. A sub optimal ability virtually does not exist in the game. Making an old spell viable equates to adding a new ability.

We know for sure that we need to fix the future meta because we know that addressing the power gap will have changed it entirely already.
To not say that openly would make us fools or dishonest. Neither is desirable in a game company.

This is why we are opening these discussions. The cat is already out of the bag, and we are smart enough to know that we need player feedback. At this point being conservative would be counter productive, but changes should be done with care.

DF 2012 was a meta that "worked" for those that remained till the end, but drove away a larger population either directly or indirectly.
And we are not talking about "carebears" or people the game was not meant for. We're talking about people that bought the game and remained subbed until a point where the meta dictated they would "never" catch up character wise.

We cannot not fix the power gap, we need New Dawn to be a sustainable product. And so do the vets, what is the point of a relaunch if it ends up shutting down again?

So let's embrace the facts we are working with, and try to make sure the final result will be superior for everyone involved, even those that loved DF 2012.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

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Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #20
The combat META is the main thing that kept people around.  Not just the mechanics.

What? Jack of all trades keep people playing? Are you really serious? How much people left to play Darkfall after the magic era till the end? 200-300? If it was a system so loved why people costantly leave the game week after week?

Are these post from the old community that irritate me not because of the suggestion per se but because they are really naive if they think that the meta system of Darkfall was good.

My experience (see the video section with footages) was competely different from yours, when people start to macro and grind for magic, force this playstile into everyone else, the damage began to be irreversible and the game doomed.

Changing the meta is necessary to create diversity and please more RPG players. I understand that you guys like DF for what it was, but it failed, hard, and you are a niche under the niche.
DF with melee/magic/archery/crafting characters all in one is simply a fail concept, an interesting experience that belong to the past, this was a proven fact not just my personal opinion.
  • Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 06:07:46 pm by Fnights
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Darkfall Online (Eu-1)
2009~2012
DF1 broken issues

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #21
The combat META is the main thing that kept people around.  Not just the mechanics.

Jack of all trades keep people playing? Are you on drugs? Is the exact opposite.
How much people left to play Darkfall after the magic era till the end? 200-300? If it was a system so loved why people costantly leave the game week after week?
Read my history in the video section, my experience was competely different from yours, when people start to macro and grind for magic, force this playstile into everyone else to compete, the damage began to be irreversible..

Changing the meta is necessary to create diversity and please more RPG players, i don't get why you old vets continue to no understand this simple concept. I understand that you guys like Df for what it was, but it failed, hard, DF with melee/magic/archery/crafting characters all in one is simply a fail concept, this was a proven fact not just my personal opinion.

The prime time of Darkfall was right after the hellfreeze expansion.  The game didn't begin to lose population until people realized AV wasn't going to do anything to update the game and add more content.  The PvP was amazing, but PvP alone isn't enough to keep people actively playing, they need sandbox content.  I don't know why I even bother telling you this though because no matter how many times people show you reason or give you straight evidence, you just plug your ears and ignore them and spout the same repeated bullshit over and over again.  Literally everyone at the RoA forums can't stand you because all you do is spam the same sentences over and over again in every thread, in every post. New people reading your poorly written, incoherent spam EVERYWHERE is probably going to drive tons of people away from both projects.  I mean right when someone loads these forums your name pop up everywhere in every post.  Do the community and the future of both games a favor and stop spamming.  Discuss new ideas and concepts.  For the love of god, just stop spamming.

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #22
@Fnights
Aristos, and other vets have a point.
Something kept people playing and interested in the game despite no updates and wipe announcements. There is something in Darkfall's combat that is strong enough to somewhat support a game, even without content. It is everyone's duty to try to preserve that aspect.

The disagreement here is on what caused this positive effect. To remain in our earlier analogy, for many vets the fuel was what made the engine function, where we believe that the engine functioned despite the fuel being of low quality.

But as we said in the previous comment, this debate is moot.
We're altering the fuel so much by trying to make it more affordable that we have to review the entire chemical composition to make it work. However we are convinced that if we all chip in, that final mixture will not only be cheaper but will also make the engine run more efficiently.

Let's all be constructive. Stay excellent to each other, and party on.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #23
I'm happy to continue discussing ideas with Fnights as long as he stops spamming the same sentences in every post.  Several people at the RoA forums have made repeated threads asking for him to be banned, that's how bad he's gotten.

I think the best thing for your vision is to just let the players try out the new changes themselves in the beta.  Despite how many vets claim they are turned off from this project, I guarantee you every single one will still check it out and see if they were wrong.  The best feedback will come from actually experiencing the changes.

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #24
You have both been extremely constructive on our forums. that's all we can see.

We agree, play testing is going to give so much more than theory crafting.

Unfortunately, right now, we're at a point that's all we have to do. if we can save up some development time by already anticipating future issues, either by ourselves or with the help of the community, then we'll reach a better spot sooner.

Some great things have come out already. For example, we had a basic idea to make blocking more interesting, and with all the threads discussing various aspects of the game, we reached a system that will fit well and interact with other elements in interesting manners. Another point that we had in our to-design list was some ways to nerf existing CCs and we've found our solutions as well.

Of course, we will have to prove that we can create a balanced meta game, and the doubt and push back from the community is understandable, but have we at least convinced you that what we are doing is a necessity?
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

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Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #25
The prime time of Darkfall was right after the hellfreeze expansion.  The game didn't begin to lose population until people realized AV wasn't going to do anything to update the game and add more content.

Sorry but blaming Aventurine is naive, game begin to lose players much before they introduced to jesus patch and much before they spoken about a possible sequel. When the magic era start, people realize how much grind they had to face to compete against these macroers who grind 24/7 and overnight. Casuals leave, RPG players leave because the jack of all trades was the consequence of the magic.

Quote
The PvP was amazing, but PvP alone isn't enough to keep people actively playing, they need sandbox content.

Then ask is every mmorpg forum if everyone is happy to learn 60+ spells to compete, using a macro to rotate all these spells and bunnyhopping away when you are in trouble, and i'm sure that mojority wiill reply to fuck you off. You wanna bet?

Tell a new player that start to play the game that he have to rely on 4 disciplines to advance and after a week you will not see him around anymore.

Who really stay is just you old vets, the same people and a true niche that loved that system and played till the end, aka 200-300 people.

Quote
I don't know why I even bother telling you this though because no matter how many times people show you reason or give you straight evidence, you just plug your ears and ignore them and spout the same repeated bullshit over and over again.

And you are doing the same, insist that jack of all trades wasn't the issue, that the meta was balanced and good and people like it.

Quote
Literally everyone at the RoA forums can't stand you because all you do is spam the same sentences over and over again in every thread, in every post.

The post where i'm active are just 2, and i reply only because of the quotes, but is a lost battle, like you these people will never understand how much this system damaged the game and keep away potential new players.

Quote
New people reading your poorly written, incoherent spam EVERYWHERE is probably going to drive tons of people away

You can't tell, the cause because lots of players leaved was the perfect opposite, the toxic community of kiddos,  blame me now or some people back them make no sense.

Everyone in forumfall tried to propose new changes to the game, from a skill cap to a more specs, to decrease the grind was instantly attacked by these harcore players that tell them to macro afk and that they can be viable in a week.
How in the hell someone sane with a brain on the shoulders can believe these shenanigans?

Quote
I think the best thing for your vision is to just let the players try out the new changes themselves in the beta.  Despite how many vets claim they are turned off from this project, I guarantee you every single one will still check it out and see if they were wrong.  The best feedback will come from actually experiencing the changes.

The only thing i agree with you, try these changes direct on the game and leave feedback after, not try to change the vision of devs before.

ps: I'm stubborn about this matter because after Darkfall there was nothing worth to play and still today, every mmorpg i tried was an empty shell, i just want Darkfall to succed this time, and to achieve this the game need funds and a healthy population, something that is impossible with the old failed system in place.

Of course, we will have to prove that we can create a balanced meta game, and the doubt and push back from the community is understandable, but have we at least convinced you that what we are doing is a necessity?

If you speak for both, me absolutely, but i always liked your vision since the first day you post it.
  • Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 07:48:25 pm by Fnights
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Darkfall Online (Eu-1)
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DF1 broken issues

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #26
You only needed roughly 35 spells to be able to be completely viable as a hybrid.  Many MMOs require you to have much more than that. 

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #27
This is a pointless debate. It is impossible for you two to agree on one cause because it was both.

Some players got driven away by the perception of "grind" AND others were driven away by boredom due to a lack of daily activities.

We're addressing both fronts, and several others at the same time.

Now let's get back on track for the initial subject.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #28
A few additional  questions now:
- How would you feel about an interrupt?
We are not a fan of the idea, but an action that cancels damage on both end could have its place.
Imagine you get seized, you have the choice to "power through" it, or hope to be faster than your opponent. Use the "interrupt", then unbalance, then a block rebuke combo / parry riposte combo and the seize effect will be over. A skillful player could reduce the incoming damage and dish out even more damage.

- How would you feel about removing whirlwind?
Whatever happens, we'll add a global cooldown to melee abilities to avoid switching to other weapons for multiple whirlwind or power attacks in a row. It is part of the "lesser grind to be viable" changes.
We feel that whirlwind was too central to the meta game. Players would stay mostly in ranged, and just do passes at each other. In a sense, it was an hybrid/mage tool more than a melee tool. We wonder if it would not invalidate a lot of the changes a melee overhaul would bring by having an almost guaranteed hit ability.
Perhaps nerfing its damage would be enough, or give it a longer build up animation so that the weapon switch+whirlwind macro becomes useless.
Opinions?

- What do you think of making all weapons usable on mounts?
This would help the time to viability by making players only need to level one melee weapon mastery.
In this case, there will be a choice that would impact what kind of rider the player is.
Polearms would have a "jousting" or "lancing" style. Go straight, do one high damage pass, and move back in but suck at staying around people on foot.
2 handers would have a decent reach on the sides, a bad one at the front/back and would be great to stay around people on foot, but will have less defensive abilities.
1h and shield would be a more defensive approach. it would be able to do better against polearms charges but also hold its own against people on foot, despite a lower reach than 2h, due to higher attack speed.
Daggers would be less encumbering so the front and rear mount attacks would be faster and easier to do, but there will be no side attacks reaching the ground, but could be good against other riders to get 2 hits in when they get only one.
For all those, the rider title would be useful.

-  Any opinions on our shield/spear walls ideas?
 
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Melee overhaul: Combos, guard break, stagger.
Reply #29
A few additional  questions now:
- How would you feel about an interrupt?
We are not a fan of the idea, but an action that cancels damage on both end could have its place.
Imagine you get seized, you have the choice to "power through" it, or hope to be faster than your opponent. Use the "interrupt", then unbalance, then a block rebuke combo / parry riposte combo and the seize effect will be over. A skillful player could reduce the incoming damage and dish out even more damage.

- How would you feel about removing whirlwind?
Whatever happens, we'll add a global cooldown to melee abilities to avoid switching to other weapons for multiple whirlwind or power attacks in a row. It is part of the "lesser grind to be viable" changes.
We feel that whirlwind was too central to the meta game. Players would stay mostly in ranged, and just do passes at each other. In a sense, it was an hybrid/mage tool more than a melee tool. We wonder if it would not invalidate a lot of the changes a melee overhaul would bring by having an almost guaranteed hit ability.
Perhaps nerfing its damage would be enough, or give it a longer build up animation so that the weapon switch+whirlwind macro becomes useless.
Opinions?

- What do you think of making all weapons usable on mounts?
This would help the time to viability by making players only need to level one melee weapon mastery.
In this case, there will be a choice that would impact what kind of rider the player is.
Polearms would have a "jousting" or "lancing" style. Go straight, do one high damage pass, and move back in but suck at staying around people on foot.
2 handers would have a decent reach on the sides, a bad one at the front/back and would be great to stay around people on foot, but will have less defensive abilities.
1h and shield would be a more defensive approach. it would be able to do better against polearms charges but also hold its own against people on foot, despite a lower reach than 2h, due to higher attack speed.
Daggers would be less encumbering so the front and rear mount attacks would be faster and easier to do, but there will be no side attacks reaching the ground, but could be good against other riders to get 2 hits in when they get only one.
For all those, the rider title would be useful.

-  Any opinions on our shield/spear walls ideas?
 


Something that cancels damage is a no. Something that cancels CC is a maybe yes since you wish to add slows as a new form of CC. So it's only right to add interrupt with a proper cooldown and penalty. At the end, countering should always be the number 1 choice.
I just don't like unbalance because like i said, ppl can use knock-back and you will fix the knock-back effect anyway. So giving them one more tool to reach the same goal is one more thing that i don't want.

I feel like whirlwind deserve an overhaul. Once again, i use lol as an example. In lol, Darius's spin attack recently got changed and it now has a delay with a telegraph. Let's do that instead. A 1 second delay might be good enough and since it's an AOE, it should follow AOE's logic entirely in DF. This mean, the further away you are from the center, the less damage you receive from whirlwind.
The only reason i like whirlwind so much is because of chrono-trigger. Since then, i feel like whirlwind deserve his spot in all RPG games that exist.

All weapon useable on mounts is equivalent to more content IMO. So yes on that, definitely. I even wish for archery on work while mounted. If magic, not all of them. AOE while mounted for example would be too easy.

Shield/spear walls is what i feel can be unique in melee.
Unique play-style for melee users is exactly what i want. I wish for nothing that will be too similar to the magic we already got in game. Again, while you think something like Lounge is unique, the strategy is not. Lunge will be used the same way a ray is used. As soon as your opponent is out of melee reach, use Lunge. As soon as your opponent is out of reach, use ray. That's what i'm against overall.

  • Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 10:52:27 pm by Bloodymurderer