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Topic: Everything blockable.  (Read 412 times) previous topic - next topic

Everything blockable.
In DF, we tend to believe that movement impairment abilities are OP when they're not. Usually, by the time we become unable to move how ever we want, we pick a shield and we block. If an enemy choses to use disable, that's 1 action wasted. So disables are no big-deal, especially not in 1on1.

The real problem are unblockable abilities. In general, it's not so easy to hit a player with them, but thanks to wof and knock-ups, it's a piece of cake. So we wish to eliminate blockables once and for all.

It's simple.

Shield block: Debuff, drains, insect-swarm... effectiveness reduced by 80%.
Weapon block: Debuff, drains, insect-swarm... effectiveness reduced by 50%.

Re: Everything blockable.
Reply #1
In principle, this is an interesting idea. Thank you for opening this thread.

Here are a few possible issues we see:
- this will indirectly make disabling shot, and by extension archery, mandatory. This increases the imposed grind to be viable.
- we may have to implement a LM or GM spell to prevent blocking, but it buffs hybrids since they will have two ranged abilities, unless we make them share cooldowns.
- changing block disables to only work on blocking characters will alleviate the issue, but if a disabling effect is too widespread then blocking in normal situations is nerfed.

We could try implementing it and see how it play tests.
Initially, blocking would block the same percentages than for damages.
IF our foreseen issues arise, we have the outlined fixes available later on. If debuffs are still too strong in a wof/knockup ,we can look at more blocking buffs. For instance a well timed block would completely cancel a debuff.
IF we notice it causes more issues than it solves, we can always revert the changes.

This is maybe the first suggestion we had not already thought about.
So does any one see potential issues with these solutions? Or issues that we missed in our "on the spot" reaction?
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Everything blockable.
Reply #2
In principle, this is an interesting idea. Thank you for opening this thread.

Here are a few possible issues we see:
- this will indirectly make disabling shot, and by extension archery, mandatory. This increases the imposed grind to be viable.
- we may have to implement a LM or GM spell to prevent blocking, but it buffs hybrids since they will have two ranged abilities, unless we make them share cooldowns.
- changing block disables to only work on blocking characters will alleviate the issue, but if a disabling effect is too widespread then blocking in normal situations is nerfed.

We could try implementing it and see how it play tests.
Initially, blocking would block the same percentages than for damages.
IF our foreseen issues arise, we have the outlined fixes available later on. If debuffs are still too strong in a wof/knockup ,we can look at more blocking buffs. For instance a well timed block would completely cancel a debuff.
IF we notice it causes more issues than it solves, we can always revert the changes.

This is maybe the first suggestion we had not already thought about.
So does any one see potential issues with these solutions? Or issues that we missed in our "on the spot" reaction?

Ho first off, i think Field AOE's should remain unblockable. They were not so powerful after-all. They only shine when a player is getting focus down by field AOE's. Truth is, they were only a threat when something like Toxic-rain is surging.

DF UW got ''disable'' with a staff. So i think it's right to allow mages to cast that as-well. Making disabling- shot and disabling-cast share cooldown is the right thing to do. If you don't know, in DFO, players use a script to equip a bow with disabling-shot ready.
If you wish to make third party programs sush as Auto-hotkey become obsolete, you need to allow mages to use some type of disabling shot with a staff.

Remember that Hybrids were never OP, it's only third party programs that allowed each players to become better than intended, but they still were not OP believe me on that.

As for disable working on players with parry-up, you said it yourself that there will be a larger window in-between the time they block and the time they stop blocking. For example, as soon as they release the V key, they're vulnerable to disable after an other 2 seconds(That's atleast how i read it).

Beside, i myself am strongly against disables in DF. I wish we had a parry meter that prevents one from blocking for-ever, but encourages pressure. That's for an other thread tho if you like where i'm going with this. I made a suggestion like this in the official forum as-well so i can definitely bring it back here.
In fact, i got some idea's on a parry + melee combat overhaul. While melee combat was fun, it only was about out-trading your opponent and nothing like Mount&blade where it's very important to parry as much as possible to come up on top eventually.
I myself prefer the savage 2 melee combat system i believe it suits DFO even more.

If you wish to introduce a just-defend system that will block 100% damage and secondary effects sush as debuff, then i'm with it. While disabled, i think just-dending should continue to work.

  • Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 07:49:03 am by Bloodymurderer

Re: Everything blockable.
Reply #3
Good. Let's wait for more people to pitch in, but it seems like we have a plan.

Remember also that stats debuffs will be switched to percentages or different calculation to impact high end characters as much as newer ones.

Did we... Did we read this right? You just suggested we did something like UW?
Joking aside, we're aware of a few thing UW got right and will not hesitate to reimplement them.
We'll do a thread to ask you guys about what you think should be salvaged.

For a block meter, that is a good concept, but the stamina use and imperfect blocking serves the same purpose and fits well with Darkfall's combat.
Unless blocking becomes too OP, which we doubt it will, we do not need to over complexify.

We do agree that melee could get improved.
The combat system was amazing with the weaving in and out of melee and ranged, but we also see some potential changes to make the trading of blows more interesting.
We planned a blog post in a couple weeks, but a thread would let us discuss it earlier.

Feel free to copy paste old suggestions. We have not followed the official forums in years and may have missed diamonds.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Everything blockable.
Reply #4
Good. Let's wait for more people to pitch in, but it seems like we have a plan.

Remember also that stats debuffs will be switched to percentages or different calculation to impact high end characters as much as newer ones.

Did we... Did we read this right? You just suggested we did something like UW?
Joking aside, we're aware of a few thing UW got right and will not hesitate to reimplement them.
We'll do a thread to ask you guys about what you think should be salvaged.

For a block meter, that is a good concept, but the stamina use and imperfect blocking serves the same purpose and fits well with Darkfall's combat.
Unless blocking becomes too OP, which we doubt it will, we do not need to over complexify.

We do agree that melee could get improved.
The combat system was amazing with the weaving in and out of melee and ranged, but we also see some potential changes to make the trading of blows more interesting.
We planned a blog post in a couple weeks, but a thread would let us discuss it earlier.

Feel free to copy paste old suggestions. We have not followed the official forums in years and may have missed diamonds.


I understand, but understand disables got introduced as a quick fix for the fact that ppl never stopped blocking and it took way too long to completely drain a player out while he's blocking. Combat was boring for that reason once ppl learned how to exploit some early issues like that.

In my opinion, while DFO did not receive so many patches, most of them were nothing, but band-aids. The game was a released beta after-all and there's so many things they did not implement yet

-With that being said, disable got implement as a band-aid to fix blocking for-ever in combat with no thought in them.
-Melee/archer specialization got introduced because most used to complain about mage-fall. That was accidentally good imo.
I remember we had a stamina bug for 3 months before AV fixed it. In other words, for 3 months, we had infinite stamina and the TTK was ridiculously much longer than it was. The fact we had to adapt to this instead of waiting for a fix made us believe it was actually gonna become a new way of playing DF officially and we didn't like it. We also learned that AV only fix bugs or introduce band-aids in combat if we complain enough together.

For combat, i think that's pretty much all.

So in my opinion, last minute addition like these never had any thought in them before being implemented. I'm pretty sure that if we take our time to discuss about these last-minute feature and then come-up with something better, combat will easily become better than it was. After all, after the first mage-fall era and 100% splash damage, when returning players stopped complaining about mage-fall, they kept on complaining about melee-headless-chicken combat. I sick to change that a bit.

The only reason i disliked disables so much is because when they were maximized, they would stick on a player for way too long. In fact, i think the duration was only balanced at level 1 or maybe 25 max. If ppl really like how disable was, then i just think it's nostalgia.

I will repost my suggestion from the official here and see what you think. If you sill hop for the old disable system, i won't mind, but we'll need to find ways to adjust it better like the duration and conditions to stick it in. So we can discuss all of this in the next thread.

Re: Everything blockable.
Reply #5
We agree on the band aid fixing. That is how we remember it as well. We could realize we are wrong once we start working on the codebase, though.

That is why our approach for changes is so wide. A game is a complex system and all changes need to be made with a complete vision.

For disables, we neither like nor dislike them. They simply exist. They are small enough in the grand scheme of things that we can look at them later. So many more issues to address and content to create before we reach them in the todo list.

Same for the headless chicken, we have some ideas. The first  step is making timed blocking a thing and fixing seize to reduce sprint speed.

Our hope is that people will look at each other and try to anticipate attacks and feint moves because they have the tools to dictate a fight.
We will expand on that once we notice the results.

And do post ALL the things. We see this board as a brainstorming. We'll pick what we like.
We'll also try to always explain why we do things in certain ways.
But we may not have the time to continue interracting like this during InDev. So now is the time to spam us.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Everything blockable.
Reply #6

Same for the headless chicken, we have some ideas. The first  step is making timed blocking a thing and fixing seize to reduce sprint speed.


I can't resist because i still dislike your idea on seize so here i come.

The reason most don't like your idea on seize is because you're gonna turn it into a DF UW ability and you don't realize it.

The name of the ability is Pummel: a skirmisher duelist ability. During the class era for DF UW, the duelist was the FOTM up until they screwed the class system completely. Yet, duelist abilities were used by the majority afterwards.

I'm not saying we want absolutely nothing from DF UW in our DFO, but when it comes down to combat, there's nothing in DF UW that will compliment DFO except Break-fall: when timed right, you become immune to fall damage.

Pummel:
A swift blow to the skull with the blunt side of your weapon will momentarily blind and slow your opponent.
https://youtu.be/Hn4iYxhqqaI?t=72

We don't want that. Even when over-nerfed with blind removed, ppl still use it because it's a slow. In fact, everything in DF UW got over-nerfed, but it does not stop things that were FOTM back then from being used the same way.

That's why my suggestion on seize is simply to knock-back a player in the opposite direction just enough to make him lose control for a split second. That will fuck-them up completely, especially when they don't expect it. With any type of melee weapon, seize's reach should equal up to a polearm's normal attack.
When i think of my version of seize, i think of Darius's Apprehend from League of legend minus the slow. For DFO, i see it as an other version of comehilther, but in short range

This is how i define ''headless chicken combat''. Doing nothing, but sprinting forward in different directions while doing what looks like randomly slashing or shooting arrows and magic from a newb perspective. The fact that DF is fast paced is not a problem and i don't think a slow should be the answer.

The problem:

There's no intuitive to strafe in melee, it's better to always sprint forward. With archery and magic, it's better to sprint forward as-well. We just strafe to look and shoot. then, we're back into sprinting forward. This is bad.

Solution:

In order to prevent headless chicken combat, timed block is good and i think it should work while disabled, but what most ppl want is faster strafing. Problem is, that's now an exclusive thing for mahirims.
I say, allow everyone to use and level mahirim hunt-speed, but the version for everyone else should not be a passive. It should be possible to sprint while strafing or back paddling so naturally, you lose stamina per second for that.
  • Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 05:06:33 pm by Bloodymurderer

Re: Everything blockable.
Reply #7
We answered the snare discussion both on reddit and on the other thread. No need to repeat everything.

We really don't believe that just a small pull like that would be useful, it would be only 0.50m and getting someone in reach when they already are.  We will get to play test this as we will correct the displacement effect bugs first, seize will be a pull for while as well.
If what we fear gets confirmed, we can then try out our snare effect.

For strafing speed, we thought about it already. We'll try to allow sprint strafing, it's part of our "parkour" ideas.
We'll test different things during InDev. But that may be too much of a change to mechanics.

Back on the subject, we also thought that spells like come hither may need to be blockable as well.
With the displacement effects fixed, it will become even more powerful, so it may need some ways to counter it.
We'll test out stuff during InDev as well.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.