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Topic: Walk of Shame, why do we need that in this game? (Read 1845 times) previous topic - next topic

  • SomeBK
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Walk of Shame, why do we need that in this game?
Reply #15
Walk of Shame has to stay!
It's the only thing protecting new players from gankhungry veterans!
Once warfronts are implemented in 2020 Walk of Shame won't be a problem anymore!
If you don't see this you don't get the VISION!!!!!
This guy sees the vision.

Add blessed ethereal mounts aka UO. Can travel at blue tail speed and instantly dismount you and pop into your backpack if you take damage or choose to dismount. The only condition is you have to be naked with nothing other than your newbie weapons and can only remount it every 5 mins.

Sounds super technical but it's a better compreomise to spawning at a random stone in bumfuck Egypt or suiciding all the way back to your original bundstone
Fair enough ill be there, Actually can we do it Thurs
(ive been lugging boxes of books all morning from a collection I bought and a little beat)

Re: Walk of Shame, why do we need that in this game?
Reply #16
A wise man learns from others mistakes.
A normal person learns from his own.
A fool never learns.

If you are too stupid to bank mounts in various locations you deserve to walk.

This tbh.

Player holdings are useful also. Have a nice locality of them and you will never spawn at a chaos city again.

Re: Walk of Shame, why do we need that in this game?
Reply #17
A wise man learns from others mistakes.
A normal person learns from his own.
A fool never learns.

If you are too stupid to bank mounts in various locations you deserve to walk.

That isnt the discussion, i fully agree with what you write there but that isnt the point. Discussion is about why do we need a Walk of Shame not how do we adept too the WoS.

I think we do not need a WoS or Ride of Shame (if you have a mount). Local banking + no bindstone recall and runestones allready covers the problems we saw in DFO, adding a WoS on top of that is totally over the top and is in no way a reasonable penalty towards casual players.

I work 5 days a week have a social life but play most days in the week for a couple hours semi afk or active. What really pushes me away from the game is not local banking but the time consuming nonsense like the WoS. I find the increased travel times far more realistic then the old DF version and totally understand why they implemented them, but not a walk of shame or localised marketplaces these things add nothing to the game then eat up my time which i rather spend having some fun ingame.

I seen many leave the game because there are games out there which does not bore them with over the top time consuming nonsense but gives them something constructive to do the whole time you are playing. If Ub3r is scared off elitist clans non stop raiding people then make guardtowers cheaper and never allow arcane prot rings in the game. Adding time consuming nonsense pushes the wrong kind a people away from the game, i love this game but over time doing the time consuming nonsense over and over will burn me out and i will stop playing like many before me allready did.
  • Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 04:45:58 pm by Bim Bam
BimBam Kaboom - Simiran

Re: Walk of Shame, why do we need that in this game?
Reply #18
What sucks the most is when the only spawn point available is much further from home than your body.. God that gets me.

Re: Walk of Shame, why do we need that in this game?
Reply #19
melee and archery is ok,moron,but magic is broken. Why did they cut magic power,if mages have titlecap now lol. If you only can have 1-2 title rays,then it dont need to have charging time and must be instant cast.
Rays was strong,because everyone had 7 rays without cd. If i only have dragonbreath now with title,then it must be instantcast with fullpower.
I dont care about this dead shitty game,i have 10 bucks now and i can go play roa with real pvp anytime.
You dont need to cut magic power,if you can only pick 1-2 schools....Bring back old magic,we have a title cap now...
  • Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 01:00:07 pm by 4ifirnul

Re: Walk of Shame, why do we need that in this game?
Reply #20
Walk of Shame has to stay!
It's the only thing protecting new players from gankhungry veterans!
Once warfronts are implemented in 2020 Walk of Shame won't be a problem anymore!
If you don't see this you don't get the VISION!!!!!
This guy sees the vision.

Add blessed ethereal mounts aka UO. Can travel at blue tail speed and instantly dismount you and pop into your backpack if you take damage or choose to dismount. The only condition is you have to be naked with nothing other than your newbie weapons and can only remount it every 5 mins.

Sounds super technical but it's a better compreomise to spawning at a random stone in bumfuck Egypt or suiciding all the way back to your original bundstone

OR ...  wait for it ... just allow players to select the stone the bound at previously as respawn point. Not too technical and every player would welcome it who experienced the walk.
IGN: "Eilis Traee"
However, you have to take into account why we are introducing local banking.
In New Dawn, its main purpose is to be a convenience feature.
"Things just got worse."

  • SomeBK
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Walk of Shame, why do we need that in this game?
Reply #21
That works too. Was just trying to figure out middle ground between the two since we have some people that like the "strategy" involved in the walk of shame
Fair enough ill be there, Actually can we do it Thurs
(ive been lugging boxes of books all morning from a collection I bought and a little beat)

Re: Walk of Shame, why do we need that in this game?
Reply #22
No, it serves a purpose

Plan ahead

It adds a new layer of logistics and meta/ strategy and risk vs reward

Be smart/ safe and you won't be as "punished" by it

Be stupid and you get owned

Or knowingly take a risk if u think the reward might be worth it

Working as intended you need to adapt

Re: Walk of Shame, why do we need that in this game?
Reply #23
It's so simple...

You don't need WoS, you can have a "Battle Weary" timer instead. So if you die, you can respawn at your bank, but you cant PvP for "x" amount of time. It means that people who die can keep playing the game, they just cant re-engage in the fight.

You could have fast travel and incorporate "travel sickness" so that there's a debuff on the player for a period of time.

Its not hard, the game is supposed to be fun isnt it?

  • SomeBK
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Walk of Shame, why do we need that in this game?
Reply #24
Oh shit. Kind of like "stat" in faction pvp in UO. You could still pvp but your skills were dog shit for 20 mins so really all you could do is cross heal and even those heals were meh
Fair enough ill be there, Actually can we do it Thurs
(ive been lugging boxes of books all morning from a collection I bought and a little beat)

Re: Walk of Shame, why do we need that in this game?
Reply #25
The reason is troop commitment.
The walk of shame has to stay, but we also have to find ways to make it less frustrating.
This has been our position from the start, but now we can spend some time to explain why.


To explain:
Today you will occasionally have a walk of shame. It is annoying, on that we absolutely agree, but the situation is still avoidable.
This is mostly under your control. You moved there and didn't prepare/anticipate. Some players even enjoy the methodical aspect.
Some do not, however it is a necessary evil as the alternative would be far more frustrating.

As InDev and even the VCP behaviors early in the life of the server proved, players are risk averse and hate fights where they don't have a chance.
We've seen people stop going to VCP near them and even complain vehemently because they were too small to compete.
This will plague any objective in a game like ours which has no instancing.

Now fast forward a bit, when there will be harvesting nodes out of cities, raid stones, watchtowers and racial war fronts.
Imagine every single attack from smaller clans or individuals, which are the majority, turning out facing a massive opposition.
People would stop attacking, large clans would become entrenched and bored, and in the end everyone misses opportunities for fun PvP.

The most common suggestion is "naked with 24h cooldown", but that isn't any better.
Clan doctrines are a thing. If you have a territory to defend, as a leader, the optimum strategy is to order your players to not use their recalls. If you want to be a kind leader, you're at a disadvantage compared to your competition. it is a no-win scenario.
Even if it is once a day, the first raid would essentially be gear donation, with all those who came back still being in the area making subsequent attacks not worth it.

Not to mention all other issue like defending two locations at the same time.
People living near location A having to bind to location B, since in case of death they can still respawn at A and effectively live there, but can reinforce at a moment's notice the other side.
The whole population is essentially defending both locations at the same time, regardless of distance.


Leads to alleviate the frustrating aspect:

As a disclaimer, take all of this with a grain of salt. This is mostly brainstorming, and testing ideas with a wider audience.
None of it is confirmed nor planned at this point.

1) Making mounts/rafts more available
When asking players in-game how they felt, most agreed that if they indeed had access to mounts/rafts in all cases, it would reduce the frustration.
Part of this can get solved by the remote view on market place. From other in-game interrogations, we saw that people didn't even know how much it would be worth to trade mounts/rafts.
We've been hesitant to add NPC selling these because we do not want to get in the way of the player run market.

However, using the pricing trends we see, there are values at which we could have basic mounts and rafts be sold at.
This could apply to chaos stones too.

2) Making organization easier
Again, the remote buy is something meant to alleviate that. Purchase before making the trip.
Later, you should be able to buy order what you need in each location.

Other things that came up in discussions is to improve the functionality of strongboxes, perhaps making them multiple uses and sturdier.
This would help in the case of VCP runs. One would carry a strongbox and multiple gear bag in their mount, then deploy them hidden in a location on the way from the nearest respawn, and essentially never be naked, for a higher initial risk.

3) Going further towards the organization aspect
This is something we'd like to go into mostly for PvE reasons. To create small camps with deployable and destructible items.
An extension to the strongbox idea, to allow creation of supply camps to build up and defend.

The worry here is that it would require to be limited by tile, at the very least, to avoid the feature being used to harass deep in racial lands. The distance is currently a natural barrier to hitting starter cities, especially once other changes add better targets in the border zones.

In other games, these mechanic have been poorly received, but they did not have full loot and actual risks, so it may be a non-issue.
Either way, it would be a wasted development effort if it didn't turn out well, so we're being conservative.

In conclusion:
The inability to cross the map instantly, being on death or on a recall, is absolutely necessary.
However, the consequences for the individuals do not have to be as aggravating as they are now.
More tools can be implemented to make the situation even more in the players' hands.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Walk of Shame, why do we need that in this game?
Reply #26
@Ub3rgames just add option to increase spawn range for gold price 5k per km

  • sup
  • [*]
Re: Walk of Shame, why do we need that in this game?
Reply #27
How about on death you get a choice between local respawn as it is now, or respawn at a your bindstone?  If the bindstone is further away than the local respawn radius, you could add a 20 minute death sickness.  This halves all of your stats and abilities and adds 50% encumbrance penalty, and stops you from using the auction house.  I tried to think of how this could be "exploited" but I'm sure I've missed some edge cases:

- I bind in Ghanalaj but live in Bel Melek.  We have a siege coming up, so I kill myself and choose to spawn at Gahanlaj.  Now to participate in the siege I have to have had already created gear bags and left them in Ghanalaj or I have to be provided with bags by my clan.  If I die I need to be well prepared to keep gearing up or else I'm now out of the fight.  To get back to my current living place of Bel Melek I now have to travel all the way back because my local respawn is now around Ghana.  If I got loot from the siege I have to transport all that back to Bel Melek as well.  The only thing you gained by doing this is not having to run from Bel Melek to ruby but you had to have already done this at some point to bind.  Could totally remove this by not allowing bind to bindstone if the holding is under siege.

- I live on Niff but I bind in Bel Melek.  This way I can check the remote auction house and if I find something super cheap I can kill myself and go to bindstone and hope no one buys it for 20 minutes and then I can buy it all.  Now I have to move that item all the way back to Niff or just resell it or keep it in Bel Melek and play here for a while. (EDIT: I forgot I can now buy from remote market so this isn't really even an issue anymore except for pick-up without as much travel but still a wait timer if your bind happens to be a market you bought something at)

- My clan's holding is on Yssam and I live in Wolf area.  A VCP by our holding is going live so I kill myself 30 minutes in advance and then gear up at my holding bank and join the group.  If we win I now have to travel back or play from Yssam for a while.  If I die I better have more gear here or I'm out of the fight.  Saves nothing but the time running up to Yssam, and you could disable bindstone spawning if a VCP is live within 1 hour in a certain radius around your bind

- My clan is being raided by a large group, so I kill myself and respawn at my holding to join the fight.  I will respawn at the holding dead with 1 hp and naked.  I have to get to the bank without being seen and gear up, and even then I now have terrible stats and do almost useless damage and healing.  And now I'm locked into playing from this area all to try and stop a raid on a holding that is probably empty or just has a couple dudes in it?

With this system I do have one option to move across the world (with nothing on me and a penalty) but I can barely use this to my advantage and If I want to have a bindstone all the way across the world from where I play I will be forcing myself to do the walk of shame any time I want to move a little further out from my current play area and not rebind.

This all seems way more palatable to me than the current system.  As it is right now I feel like I'm basically locked into one small part of the map unless I dedicate an entire play session to moving to a new location.  The death penalty is HUGE right now.  I lose every single thing I had on me and if I want to rejoin my friends I have to either have a bank ready here, or travel all the way back to my bank and then ride all the way back to the group.  This is the main reason I only play an hour here or there, and the main reason why every single person I started this game with have quit.
  • Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 11:11:59 pm by sup

Re: Walk of Shame, why do we need that in this game?
Reply #28
The reason is troop commitment.
The walk of shame has to stay, but we also have to find ways to make it less frustrating.
This has been our position from the start, but now we can spend some time to explain why.

To explain:
Today you will occasionally have a walk of shame. It is annoying, on that we absolutely agree, but the situation is still avoidable.
This is mostly under your control. You moved there and didn't prepare/anticipate. Some players even enjoy the methodical aspect.
Some do not, however it is a necessary evil as the alternative would be far more frustrating.

As InDev and even the VCP behaviors early in the life of the server proved, players are risk averse and hate fights where they don't have a chance.
We've seen people stop going to VCP near them and even complain vehemently because they were too small to compete.
This will plague any objective in a game like ours which has no instancing.

Now fast forward a bit, when there will be harvesting nodes out of cities, raid stones, watchtowers and racial war fronts.
Imagine every single attack from smaller clans or individuals, which are the majority, turning out facing a massive opposition.
People would stop attacking, large clans would become entrenched and bored, and in the end everyone misses opportunities for fun PvP.

I do not see your point as said before, in current mechanics players who have a holding near a vcp or other pvp hotspot allready have the option to revive at their holding. Only clans who have holdings further away from the fighting area/death location will benefit from a bindstone revival, they can regear ride back and participate in the fight. I do not see any difference between that and having gear near a choas bank, gear up there and then ride back.  The only difference i see is the amount of time involved in transporting the stuff. You might think that it is a great solution but it gives players with a lot a time spend ingame a huge advantage over players who play casually. As said before the WoS pushes the wrong kind a of players away from the game.

I totally see the zerg aspect in your reasoning but i do not see how zerging can be stopped by adding a WoS, a big zerg will revive their members and the smaller clans will still die and loose their stuff and not be able to regear quickly to continue fighting if they choose that option. If one of the players of the zerg dies, he use's a local bindstone runs back naked to the fight location loot his grave or gets some gear from his friends and keeps on fighting.

Imho local bindstones favours the zerg more then it does 2 smaller groups, if we had only bindstone revival and no local bindstone then i do see a better future for smaller groups. A smaller group can then tactically attack the bigger group and one by one lower their numbers, with bindstone revival the zergling has to go back to his holding and can not spawn almost next to the location of the fight so the time added for a zergling to replenish their numbers is higher with bindstone revival then with localised bindstones.
It would add a WoS for solo players and give players during a siege big problems regearing but since this game promotes regional control over clans having holdings all over the map it might even a more positive result then having a WoS.

I hope you see my point that the WoS is not a solution to avoid zerging, the number advantage in this version is allready huge compared to old version so that the Dev team wants to protect the smaller clans is 100% correct but WoS is a negative solution and pushes casual players away from this game.

Quote
The most common suggestion is "naked with 24h cooldown", but that isn't any better.
Clan doctrines are a thing. If you have a territory to defend, as a leader, the optimum strategy is to order your players to not use their recalls. If you want to be a kind leader, you're at a disadvantage compared to your competition. it is a no-win scenario.
Even if it is once a day, the first raid would essentially be gear donation, with all those who came back still being in the area making subsequent attacks not worth it.

If a zerg comes to a city and the smaller clan can recall and defend that is not a bad thing at all, they can choose to not defend no issue's there. If a smaller clan raids a zerg the naked bindstone revival can give zerglings an advantage 100% true. but this is only during a raid. Siege mechanics are untouched by having a naked revival.

Quote
Not to mention all other issue like defending two locations at the same time.
People living near location A having to bind to location B, since in case of death they can still respawn at A and effectively live there, but can reinforce at a moment's notice the other side.
The whole population is essentially defending both locations at the same time, regardless of distance.

You can only revive at a holdings bindstone to which you are bound, if you havent then you cant revive there. easy fix....
Still this is an example of mechanics during a raid which hardly takes place in this version. 90% of all fighting is around vcp and mob spawns, with battlefronts added the raiding pvp will even be less frequent.
Quote
In conclusion:
The inability to cross the map instantly, being on death or on a recall, is absolutely necessary.
However, the consequences for the individuals do not have to be as aggravating as they are now.
More tools can be implemented to make the situation even more in the players' hands.

I totally see the point you are making and 100% agree with deleting fast travel in this game but....... if the solution or mechanics only creates non contructive or boring content then people will stop playing. The introduction of the WoS covers most issue's around fast travel so i understand why it is in the game but i challenge you to rethink your solution. I do not challenge the reason why you introduced the WoS.

Sup Dude made some great suggestions in the post above this one, there are really better solutions then a WoS. This game needs population above anything else, we reached the point where people are leaving the game because of the low population. So it is time to rethink some of the changes and solutions and try to improve them so people are more inclined to log in.
BimBam Kaboom - Simiran

Re: Walk of Shame, why do we need that in this game?
Reply #29
@Ub3rgames

Troop commitment? I didn't plan ahead? Are you fucking high or something?

We live in Tiquiya. If we wanna go to Caxul village, we gear up and ride for 25 minutes to get to the village. If we then die due to a zerg, we get to respawn at a chaos stone. Then we have to run to Tolenque on foot (no closer option). That's 10 minutes or so. Most of us have mounts there, so we can ride from Tolenque to Tiquiya to regear, that's 15 minutes more, at least.

So we're spending 25 minutes doing LITERALLY NOTHING except AFK running to regear. How fucking insane do you have to be to consider this good game design?

And before you say "just bring gearbags to Tolenque" -- what's the fucking point of player cities then, if you're just gonna keep all your shit in chaos banks anyway and never return? Why have a holding? So you can AFK craft in a bit more peace?

Let us respawn in our owned holdings, regardless of distance to where you died. It will make holdings have actual fucking value, and it will reduce the pain and frustration of PVPing far away from your main area. It will make people more willing to travel to other places, and leave their native zone. You still have to spend the time to run there, and you still have to move all the gear you have to use. Just can just cut out the absolutely useless, retarded time spent AFK running.
Flopfall: New Dawn. Please buy 6 accounts.
SACCADE NEOS -- SIMIRAN