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Topic: Discussion: On the effects of fixed displacement effects. (Read 709 times) previous topic - next topic

Discussion: On the effects of fixed displacement effects.
With the latest discussion on slow effects, some sub point came up:
What would fixing displacement effects do to the meta game?

First, what do we mean by that:
There was a bug in Darkfall that caused all knockbacks, pulls or push away effects to not work properly on moving targets.
We would fix that.

The first effect would be to make bunny hopping much harder, but we consider that part of fixing the knockbacks, we would also reimplement the bunny hopping effects in a balanced and controlled way.

So a second effect then would be to make kiting a lot more potent. if you can push away a melee character or  jump away yourself, then getting into melee range would be in large part due to a mistake of the kiter rather than the skill of the attacker.
With fixed knockbacks, even simple arrows would push back a target a bit. This may make closing the gap very hard, and keeping up with someone determined to avoid you almost impossible.

A third effect would be to make come hither a lot more dangerous to use when puling people off of walls or ships. This may be an issue needing to be addressed. A temporary solution is to consider those effects blockable and to have a "grounded" state as a preventive measure when one would expect to get pulled.

Finally, there are some things we do not know the end result. Would wall of force get more or less potent? Would fire knock ups still behave the same or be even stronger? Those are things that we need to monitor.


Did we miss anything? Are there other side effects you believe would occur and do you agree with our conclusions here?
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Discussion: On the effects of fixed displacement effects.
Reply #1
I think DF UW fixed all knock-backs already and everything is still fine. Fireball is almost the same, but you don't just jump in the direction you're running into or up-ward, you get a real knock-back. Magma bomb's follow up is not as reliable because the direction in which the victim gets knocked-back is unpredictable, but never forward or up-ward in a straight line.

With knockbacks fixed, wof was still the same; it's just AV who decided to buff wof so i think it was as powerful as a surged wof which was ridiculous or maybe DF UW just never had a counter against lvl 75 wof unlike DFO.

Arrows with better knobacks in DF UW is never used as a way to push melee players away from you; it's not enough. In fact, in DFO, the only mobs that can push you away consecutively were the metayin. Even with DFO's physic, it was pretty hard to approach all 4 of them in melee. They're mostly in the water, not on the shore so i can't make the difference.
Arrows knocback effect in DF is only good as a minor aim fuck-up so it's mostly good against archers or direct hit magic.

Finally, they also had to re-introduce bunny hopping in DF UW. I'm not talking about dash and stampede; those 2 got heavily nerfed or removed. Today, we once again got begone and it works on all direction. It's not the same begone: you must shoot it on yourself like an explosion, not on the ground. With havok blast, you must shoot it behine you. It will knock you back and you will jump foward faster.

I don't prefer these bunny hop alternative because bunny hopping in DF UW is almost as effective as in DFO once again, but i only wish for some adjustment. The new begone and havok blast from DF UW, i would like them if they didn't send you flying too far away so fast, especially in the water. I mean, from the water, you can jump on a fucking ship. that was never possible to do in DFO.

Back on the bunny hop subject, i always thought that storm-blast and shrapnel were balanced, but i doubt that shrapnel will work the same way after the fix.









Re: Discussion: On the effects of fixed displacement effects.
Reply #2
Yes arrows knock back would not be that pottent, just more or less slow down an approach but not stop it.

For bunnyhopping, it will push less far away.
We were thinking of having begone left click push others, right click push self.

We'll monitor this closely, we want to keep in fight repositionning but prevent ships or mount related issues.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

  • Fnights
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Discussion: On the effects of fixed displacement effects.
Reply #3
So a second effect then would be to make kiting a lot more potent. if you can push away a melee character or  jump away yourself, then getting into melee range would be in large part due to a mistake of the kiter rather than the skill of the attacker.
With fixed knockbacks, even simple arrows would push back a target a bit. This may make closing the gap very hard, and keeping up with someone determined to avoid you almost impossible.

Hybrid battlemages are already OP since they can use every skill in the game and so every CC, knockback, knockup, it will penalize futher people who like play as pure melee with archery as a range secondary discipline.

Maybe if you remove the 180° jump+spin that hybrids uses to endless kiting a metal plate user it can be ok. Make it so while you are on the air you can't rotate your camera more than 90°, so is a 90° jump+spin.

Quote
Would wall of force get more or less potent? Would fire knock ups still behave the same or be even stronger? Those are things that we need to monitor.

Personally don't like CCs in a true player skills game, expecially because i will play as a melee/archery character without, if is possible, magic. I think that specialized players already are gimped against the hybrid battlemages and their insane arsenal of utilities.
For knock up, it can be the same and push back, you can make them less powerfull so you wont take falling damage, or you can nerf the 180° jump+spin into a 90° jump+spin.

ps: About the full 180° jump+spin, you can make it as a title for specialized mages as alternative, so they at least will waste 1 slot.
  • Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 02:17:59 pm by Fnights
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Re: Discussion: On the effects of fixed displacement effects.
Reply #4
We will not limit the camera movement.
There are other ways to fix jump spinning that do not limit the player's control of his character.
And remember that by the end, jump spinning was a perk in competition with others. We'll use that system, and then see if more is necessary.

But it is certain that something needs to be done to control kiting.

Hard CCs are a big no. But soft CCs that have counters are fine. We have already announced nerfs and counters.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

  • Naos
  • [*][*][*][*]
Re: Discussion: On the effects of fixed displacement effects.
Reply #5
Lol god damn whats that for a suggestion to limit camera movement. I am heavily curious what should be a 90° jump spin useful for :D.

Re: Discussion: On the effects of fixed displacement effects.
Reply #6
We will not limit the camera movement.
There are other ways to fix jump spinning that do not limit the player's control of his character.
And remember that by the end, jump spinning was a perk in competition with others. We'll use that system, and then see if more is necessary.

But it is certain that something needs to be done to control kiting.


Why do you wish to control kiting? It's perfect.  Beside, in DFO, jumping is the worse thing you can do when you fight because you become an easy target. Kiting never was recommended to perform. So like i said, it was perfect.

  • Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 11:52:40 pm by Bloodymurderer

  • Zeb
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Re: Discussion: On the effects of fixed displacement effects.
Reply #7
Melee is too powerful..

Take into account at how quickly someone could get taken down in a stickyback, under 10 seconds in most cases and thats being generous..

If you were not ontop of your game and got out of that melee encounter quickly(stormblast,confusion,begone) you were toast (burnt toast with no jelly)

Pure melee playstyle (heavy hybrids, destroyers, magekillers) Its a clever game of, gap closers, staying on target, switching from melee weapon to ranged weapon to get the target to squirrel so they lose ground, and you catch up.

Jump casting was a specialization that could be applied to certain spells, Fireball mostly, rays were instant so didnt need that.

Jumpshot allowed 180spin for archery right.. its been so long.
I always invested in double jump for my character, because it allowed better bunny hopping and reaching high places easier without spells, sometimes better kiting..

But a negative to jump casting, jump shoosting , was it allowed the opponent to predict where to fire next as you landed vs if you were squirrelling on the ground.

Bolas
Rope Nets
Battlespike oil bomb (slippery surface zero traction)
Freeze traps
etc
Have to be considered with balance in mind that melee is very powerful and can make fights really short and unforgiving.

Re: Discussion: On the effects of fixed displacement effects.
Reply #8
This is the purpose of this thread.
Kiting was balanced back then, we agree. However the context will be different due to displacement effects being fixed and the game trying to have more viable playstyles.

Just melee knockback working on moving targets will improve kiting immensely.

We are trying to pick your brains on other side effects we have not noticed yet. That way we can design potential fixes now and have them ready to test during InDev.

On melee, we consider it already the highest single damage source. We still need to see what lower average gear and diminishing returns will do to the TTK.
That will need play testing to adjust, since these feature will push in opposite directions.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

  • Naos
  • [*][*][*][*]
Re: Discussion: On the effects of fixed displacement effects.
Reply #9
Well you are kinda changing with that a lot of combat mechanics opposite to your intention to just change the meta. Changing displacement effects obviously leads to a lot of new problems you will have pretty difficulties with to fix and balance in a fun way.

Re: Discussion: On the effects of fixed displacement effects.
Reply #10
We are aware that there will be a lot of difficulties, but the alternative is to leave a long lasting bug unfixed and have some unusable abilities. That's just impacting the meta, because previously nonviable abilities will now be part of daily gameplay, but they won't change the game mechanics.

We have already found some interesting solutions, like timed-blocking canceling displacement effects, perma blocking reducing the effects at a stamina cost, a preemptive "grounded" state that could get wasted of not used before anything relevant and the "power through" action canceling some effects at the cost of stamina.

We will have our balance betas to catch whatever we have not caught in this preparatory phase, but if you see anything else, or have suggestions to handle the OP kiting that will exist in different ways than what we are planning, this is the perfect place..
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Discussion: On the effects of fixed displacement effects.
Reply #11
This is the purpose of this thread.
Kiting was balanced back then, we agree. However the context will be different due to displacement effects being fixed and the game trying to have more viable playstyles.

Just melee knockback working on moving targets will improve kiting immensely.

We are trying to pick your brains on other side effects we have not noticed yet. That way we can design potential fixes now and have them ready to test during InDev.

On melee, we consider it already the highest single damage source. We still need to see what lower average gear and diminishing returns will do to the TTK.
That will need play testing to adjust, since these feature will push in opposite directions.

I just hope that during testing, you will only look at good players, not everyone else. Because while kiting with fire-ball was common, it was predictable. The melee pusher simply had to cut right or left to dodge the direct hit so his movement don't get affected that way. If kiting with eye-rot, we only had to look down in third person. Even if blocking eye rot was a bug, we wish not to see this being fixed; it should for ever remain part of the game.
If kiting with archery, even if the knock-back ends up being better, like we told you, the melee pusher can shoot-back and you become an easy target if you keep on jumping like an idiot.

Il say this. What ever you do, don't become stubborn with your early fix. If we find out that your early stuff only makes things worse, it should simply revert. I hope you will keep to your word on that.

Re: Discussion: On the effects of fixed displacement effects.
Reply #12
Play testing will be the most important tool for us, so no, we won't be stubborn on any thing. If we were we would not be still talking about all this. We have also said that in our opinion, balancing should always be regarding the highest level of play. That's why we consider the worst case scenario of players never missing any spells/abilities.

In this case, we can't help but see potential issues with melee knockback/begone/stormblast working on every potential targets.
We'll have blocking to reduce effects at the cost of stamina, but that doesn't cover self displacement effects like bunny hopping,
And blocking is losing stamina and DPS too, which is a bad choice anyway if it always ends up at the advantage of the evader.

There will be a period of time on InDev with displacement effects fixed but no counter measures implemented. We will all see what happens. People may ask us to do something about the issues then, and will be more receptive to what we are suggesting once they have seen the consequences we are anticipating.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

  • Naos
  • [*][*][*][*]
Re: Discussion: On the effects of fixed displacement effects.
Reply #13
Just implement some proper physics instead, if you have momentum running or pushing towards someone a force directed against you would knock you back lesser than if you stand still or even run into the same direction.

Re: Discussion: On the effects of fixed displacement effects.
Reply #14
We will, but it won't be enough. Remember how potent melee knockback, begone and stormblast were on standing still targets.

The momentum plus partial blocking if the effects would only reduce the effect but it would still be a few meters.

We could nerf all those effects but then they would be useless in both their push back and bunnyhopping roles.

We want kiting to be a deep sub-part of the game, where both sides have skill based tools to outsmart the other.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.