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Topic: Why do you think DFO died? (Read 1071 times) previous topic - next topic

Why do you think DFO died?
This thread is necessary because most don't know why DFO died. We suggest too many things based on why we think DFO died and this what's wrong with us.

History lesson:

Usually, when a game die off, it's not hard to know the reason for that, especially when it's an mmorpg.
In the other hand, there's games that simply get shut-off to leave a bigger spot for the next game in development.

For example, Battlefield Bad company 1 multilayer did not die, it only got shut off for the next Bad company 2.
I chose to think it's it's the same shit with DFO.

With 100k early players, most like to think DFO died because of the loss from here. First of all, AV never expected to get this much players so that did not only help them, it wouldn't really change a thing if DFO wasn't that successful at first.
As a result, we lost so much players at first because of the terrible launch. Most mmorpg players don't give second chances for games like DFO anyway and we all know that.

It's not only players from sandbox mmo's who tried DFO, it's also players from theme park mmo's and i'm an example. I come from wow. I never was an hardcore player. I first stopped playing DFO after my 3rd day just because i died with what i thought was valuable. I thought i was ready for that, but i wasn't. I came back a year later with the right mindset and it takes time to look back to a game as hardcore as DFO. It's a shock. In 3 days only, i still knew that DFO was the only game in the market that can give me an adrenaline -rush while playing.
So to think that ppl don't come back is completely false, it just takes a lot of time.

The grind, lack of content and the overall clunkiness(the game does not feel smooth at all for new players) is what drove so much players away. Being told that you must join a clan when you first try DFO is what drove all solo players away. By solo players, i'm talking about those who prefer not to be bothered at all. There's not even a tutorial island or something for starters.

In combat, everyone liked it the first time around, but fact is, it still had a lot of issue like blocking for ever.
Later on, the merc, the first clan to cheat and macro were the first to reach high level. This is when we discovered mage-fall with 100% splash damage. This era drove so much players away because it really was unfair. Archery and melee was non-existent nor for anyone good during that era.

With splash damage nerf, our first XP boost and the introduction of the NA1 server, a lot of players tried the game again. This is when it was beginning to become more stabilized, but it still wasn't perfect. At that point, most would complain about the grind and content. It's false that ppl complained about Hybrids as a reason to leave the game. They complained about the fact that it takes 6 months+ to become viable in combat or 6 months to become maxed if you chose to macro or to exploit on bugged mobs.

So on my next point, rampant cheating, macroing, various third party programs, newb's making assumption that everyone cheat... once again drove so much players away. Not only that, but the toxic community was a problem as-well

Finally, try and count the amount of time DFO got patches. These so called expansion patches never added too much. small patches takes them for ever to complete and the communication from them always was terrible.
...

With all of that being said, the game's population always was healthy surprisingly, especially on NA. It always was common to participate in a siege where both parties can reach up to 40 players on each sides minimum. We still had super large active clans; a bunch of them.

So then, once the game pop was fine and stabilized, Tasos announced DF 2010 and a wipe. This is when more players started to leave. Why would you grind when you know that your character will be gone in few months? Yet, the game's pop was still good, believe it on not. Probably not on EU, but on NA, it always was good, especially during prime-time everydays.

Fact is, AV killed their own game. If that's not true, then why DF UW is still online when the game pop never was bigger than DFO after years? They don't even receive enough fund to pay an employee in full and there's now only 1-3 developer working on the game. DF UW reached up to 5000 players max, but that wasn't for too long. Now, only around 100 players on NA1 for sure.

All in all, the worst thing we can do is developing DFO based on the reason we think it was a failure.



TLDR: DFO did not died the way y'all think, Tasos killed his own game slowly.



  • Zeb
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Re: Why do you think DFO died?
Reply #1
I remember never really hating the game itself, thinking it was unfair and unbalanced..

The real reason I quit playing was lack of population, lack of interaction... and in a game when the only end game is the PvP and there is no one to pvp, it kind of sucks.

I remember hating AV because of false promises, delay after delay, anouncements of delayed anouncements.
Patches to fix things or make them better, were far and inbetween...

I dont think AV had the forethought to keep an MMO alive past its honeymoon stage, and thats why they re-released the game as unholy wars thinking they could have the same success again, with a new name.

  • Fnights
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Why do you think DFO died?
Reply #2
Imo, the game died for several reason but the most blatanty were, in order of importance:

1) no skill cap that generate the "jack of all trades" oneside build and the start of the magefall era, the main cause of the huge gap between casuals and hardcore players
2) "jack of all trades" create the necessity to grind and macro for everyone, mandatory to be competitive against the hardcore and macro power leveled characters
3) zero economy, zero trade, zero value in refined gear since everyone were autosufficient
4) no sandbox content apart pvp 24/7, feeling a huge unreal arena with some rpg elements
5) hackers barely banned and detected even with blatant videos and constant reports
6) AV unable to listen to the community, constant lies and no communication

I based these points not only on my personal experience but the new players experience too, since i was one of the founders of the Eu NEW project.

On a side note, Tasos and Av in general lied a lot is absolutely true, but the game had some serious flaws and was released incomplete, lots of promised features were missing or never implemented like soft skill decay, prestige classes, more sandbox tools.
Some issue were tentatively fixed in part during the DF life, like specializations to counter the jack fo all trades and the insane grind to be competitive, no exp on killing players to reduce the bloodwalls, x6 skill gain on mobs, increase HP pool at low stats, unfortunately these changes were implemented too late since they were already working on the crappy sequel no one asked.

For these reasons i strongly think that change company but release the same game will change nothing, the perception among the mmo players wil be the same, they will continue to consider DF a mere pvp grankfest quake arena fullfilled with nolife griefers where the only task is macro, grind and kill everything move.
This perception should be changed and removed, game should change to achieve this and retake back the lost players trust.

ps: you can read my history and personal experience in Hyperion and Yssam Raider alliances,  in the video section of this forum.
  • Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 06:56:35 pm by Fnights
DnD full roadmap
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Darkfall Online (Eu-1)
2009~2012
DF1 broken issues

  • Zeb
  • [*][*][*][*]
Re: Why do you think DFO died?
Reply #3
The grind was huge, and created a Gap to viability definitely.. I think there should still be a jack of all trades but it shouldn't be the most powerful option.
  • Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 04:36:23 pm by Zeb

Re: Why do you think DFO died?
Reply #4
Imo, the game died for several reason but the most blatanty were, in order of importance:

1) no skill cap that generate the "jack of all trades" oneside build and the start of the magefall era, the main cause of the huge gap between casuals and hardcore players
2) "jack of all trades" create the necessity to grind and macro for everyone, mandatory to be competitive against the hardcore and macro power leveled characters
3) zero economy, zero trade, zero value in refined gear since everyone were autosufficient
4) no sandbox content apart pvp 24/7, feeling a huge unreal arena with some rpg elements
5) hackers barely banned and detected even with blatant videos and constant reports
6) AV unable to listen to the community, constant lies and no communication

Pretty much those points yeah.

Re: Why do you think DFO died?
Reply #5
They thought abandoning Darkfall and using their resources to make DFUW would appeal to more people.  Too bad DFUW sucks now, gg AV.

Re: Why do you think DFO died?
Reply #6
Whether DFO was abandoned or not for UW is irrelevant. It was not growing, and by extension was not successful.

If we look at successful games in the industry, player and revenue growth for these titles lasts at least a couple years, and for the best examples like Eve, for nearly a decade. We should not be satisfied with just surviving, we need to aim for victory.

You can read our opinion on why Darkfall failed in our "what we're fixing" section.
You will notice that in our mind, this was not just a single issue but an accumulation of many flaws, ranging from hacking to lack of communication with game balance and lack of content in the middle.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

  • Fnights
  • [*][*][*][*][*]
Re: Why do you think DFO died?
Reply #7
If we look at successful games in the industry, player and revenue growth for these titles lasts at least a couple years, and for the best examples like Eve, for nearly a decade. We should not be satisfied with just surviving, we need to aim for victory.

Agree, EVE was very tiny and unpopular at beginning, is only when they continue to add content and tweaks overtime that the population start to grow because of the increase of good player reviews. Hope Darkfall, with your vision, will face the same fate and grow month after month, update after update.
DnD full roadmap
***
Darkfall Online (Eu-1)
2009~2012
DF1 broken issues

Re: Why do you think DFO died?
Reply #8
AV did nothing for about 1.5-2 years before closing.  No updates, no fixes. No new content. Zero communication and news on forum. Oh and those lies about DF 2.0 is not in progress ....  (https://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?265301-Future-Plans)
"Expansion / Relaunch doesn't mean a server wipe but it may give fresh options to new and existing players" This is my favorite ^^

Game was in good shape after they dealt with cheaters / radars / items duping ect... Good performance thanks to new PCs and GPUs which were released. (i5 2500K era and 5 and 6 series of GTX) There was not many players as during launch but sill there was a lot of PvP going on.

They also had ZERO marketing / hype machine for Darkfall. They didn't wrote send interviews on popular mmo sites and did noting to bring new players into the game.

After that they closed it to launch DF:UW
Check "good bye" videos of DFO there was a lot of ppl playing until last second.
  • Last Edit: October 19, 2015, 03:55:32 pm by Vilhelm
_________________________
Vilhelm Sandwall
Rats in the Hats
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Darkfall Online (Eu-1)
Anquare Quare Supreme General

  • Zeb
  • [*][*][*][*]
Re: Why do you think DFO died?
Reply #9
There is something to be said about the learning curve of controls and figuring out the best way to setup your binds and such for quick access..

Late into darkfall, Ive grouped up with alot of maxxed characters that still didnt have a handle on their controls (being able to quickly switch weapons and bars) by the end of it.. the ones that were still around were very skilled..

As with the changes that DnD will bring, I dont fear that will be the case..
and with the changes to the interface and quality of life changes with that interface, I can see the learning curve being much much less in DnD than DFO.

Re: Why do you think DFO died?
Reply #10
The sheep could not compete with npc vendors selling bulk resources at rediculously cheap prices and had to move on to a game where they felt needed.   This in turn caused a lack of activity.   The only thing left were wolves and the wolves fed off of each other in a barren world until av pulled the plug. 

I feel like if the npc vendors had been removed and the crafter/gatherer/merchant types would have been able to provide all of the raw materials, reagents, arrows, and such the game would have never died. 

Just my opinion as to what I believe was the biggest contributing factors.  

Re: Why do you think DFO died?
Reply #11
Lots of interesting and differing perspectives in these posts. It's cool to see how most of these opinions are so heavily influenced by the playstyle and experience of the poster as well as the community they surrounded themselves with in the game.
Imo, the game died for several reason but the most blatanty were, in order of importance:

1) no skill cap that generate the "jack of all trades" oneside build and the start of the magefall era, the main cause of the huge gap between casuals and hardcore players
The lack of skill cap could also been seen as one of the more appealing aspects of the game. The idea that you could eventually craft for yourself the "perfect" finished and truly complete character. You could argue the 'jack-of-all-trades' merely granted the freedom to choose your playstyle.
2) "jack of all trades" create the necessity to grind and macro for everyone, mandatory to be competitive against the hardcore and macro power leveled characters
The grind itself was the issue, the time and resources it took to reach a minimum level of pvp-relevancy, not the existence of a 'jack-of-all-trades'
3) zero economy, zero trade, zero value in refined gear since everyone were autosufficient
100% agree
4) no sandbox content apart pvp 24/7, feeling a huge unreal arena with some rpg elements
100% agree. Although, you could argue that we, the community, are partly to blame for that. Look at a game like DayZ and you get a character like FrankieonPCin1080p who comes along; they take it upon themselves to alter the game experience and then create content showing this alternative style of interaction to everyone. We needed more Umbertos.
5) hackers barely banned and detected even with blatant videos and constant reports
An unforgivable and unacceptable issue. 100%
6) AV unable to listen to the community, constant lies and no communication
Church!



All in all, the worst thing we can do is developing DFO based on the reason we think it was a failure.

Can't agree enough. As much as I think we can all agree the game was not perfect and definitely needs some additions, removals and changes... This game was so new, different, and compelling its got us all on this forum years after its death trying to revive it so we can experience it again. Its important to remember how great it is already and what core ideas and mechanics made it this way; let's not lose that when making necessary changes.

Re: Why do you think DFO died?
Reply #12
You know the saying "learn from mistakes"? Well it is true but not entirely accurate. Positive reinforcment is actually a stronger learning tool, which means humans learn more from success than from failure.

Where we are getting at is that while we see the flaws of Darkfall, we also see its potential, or we wouldn't be trying to revive it.

In practice, this means that we are completing the game rather than changing it. All the systems that were good concepts were only at their first iterations. We will push them forward and make them shine.

The beauty of Darkfall is that it can appeal to a wide array of playstyles. This is why there are so many diverging views for its desmise, and why all are mostly valid.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.

Re: Why do you think DFO died?
Reply #13
Taking too much time between game updates and lack of communication lost DF a lot of players throughout it's life span. The more "hard core" or "dedicated" players such as myself stuck around on hopes and dreams. This number of players would have been enough to sustain DF until an update like DF2010, but due to poor decision making and not listening to any of the player base they shut it down in favor of DFUW.

Re: Why do you think DFO died?
Reply #14
What kind of update schedule do you think is relevant?

The industry has done a full cycle lately, going from yearly expansion to by weekly updates back to the expansion model.
Turns out that larger expansion have a better retention factor and lowers the barrier of re-entry for past players. After all there is only one patch note to read and more large feature to attract and hook back in the game.

We were thinking of a schedule post Live launch that would give enough room for the meta game to stabilize and breath before we change things again. This way players get time to truly learn what the previous expansion changed.
The Darkfall: New Dawn Dev Team.